Ashi sabaki (kani ashi, sashikae...)

[Louie Dickens]

Hey gang,
So I don't know if anybody has talked about this before, but why not anyways. I was playing bushido blade (playstation) and watching the character's sidesteps. Now this game in my humble opinion is the best budo fighting game. I'm pretty sure the movements were modeled after real martial artist (really good I think too), anyways most of the movements are in line with advanced principles (except of course special weird moves), very interesting. Anyways back to ashi sabaki.

It got me really practicing yoko kani ashi (side crab step) and juji ashi (is that right, crossing over sideways?). Anyways, I always had a hard time understanding how side movement was possible, as when I am in my stance I am balanced. Quickly moving forward or back (chidori style) is no problem, but with yoko kani ashi it seems slow. You can't really kick off (because my kamae is quite on one line very narrow), so you either drop down as you bring upper parts sideways, then kick off the floor, then move, making it two movements. Too slow for me, and I always found yoko tenshin geri a bit tough for timing. It also seems weird that when we practice (at the dojo, practicing movement only) these forward backward, side, whatever, there is no block, attack, evasion, so that we don't know which way to use our hips, or don't even use our hips and move with non-changing, stiff (kind of, you know keeping in line, the same) movements. I guess this is good practice for going forward or backwards a bunch of times, but when will you use any movement (forward, back, side, chidori, whatever) without a purpose? There would always be a block or attack if this movement were used in anything other than movement specific practice (over and over across the floor, or whatever). I guess what I am saying is that when I have practiced movements in the past, the principle of using your whole body have not really applied. So...

I thought about a couple of things that may help speed up side ashi sabaki movements. Remember, this is just crazy talk. ;)

I was carrying a heavy box down a hall and was thinging about side evasion. To quickly move sideways, I could do two things. I could use the box as a counterweight and thrust the box sideways, while pushing my body the other way to balance. In this way, I could save the box, but I would be still in the attack line. Or I could leave the heavy box and push sideways and move my main body sideways, leaving the box/arms relatively in the attack zone. Is this confusing yet? Counterweight. Or something.

Anyways, we are not carrying boxes we can move sideways, but we do have these wonderful bodies, which when relaxed can act as a million (not really) counterweights. So what I am saying is that when you are in a kamae like left hand stance, you should be balanced in the middle. To move either way quickly, use can use your shoulder, arm, back muscles to separate your body so that your vital line (seichusen) is quickly moved sideways, with the rest momentarily coming behind, but still very fast. It is a weird separating sideways movement. Kind of like hasami uke (that scissors block thing). Or even some versions of juji uke, this is really obvious. Arms go forward, stomach/hips go back.

Also, how about adding the jo chu movement (not actually punching or anything, just the 1,2 with the hips you know?) to our kani ashi practice? For me when I do this, the lateral leg placement feels much more natural because I am using my whole body, with the hips. Anyways, I guess this may be obvious, I never really practiced kaisoku chudan kani ashi sabaki by using my hips before...(I think it is very slight, very quick, but still there)

I personally find ashi sabaki very difficult to perform well. ;)

[Tripitaka of AA]

Well Louie, you're not scared of trying some difficult things online are you! Exploring the finer nuances of ashi sabaki in a written form is a challenge indeed. But then that is what analogy and metaphor are all about isn't it. Learning new ways to think of things and finding different methods of explaining the inexplicable... it is all part of the learning/teaching process.

How do you work out a practice drill for ashi-sabaki that doesn't end up creating predictable "bouncing" movements? Working on the body to create muscle-memory, smooth movements that DON'T end up looking like steps in an aerobic bounce 'n' jiggle tape. I suppose it is like any good dance class, you start with a really basic step movement, then add a bit more and a bit more, until you have a non-repeating 10 or 15 step movement. Something that you can rehearse over and over to reach a state of balanced fluid movement that looks less like the stumbling toddler dressed in outsized shoes, and more like water passing over the pebbles on the beach.

Pair form training for ashi sabaki is cool too. maai training with a partner, as you strive to maintain control of range, both as tori and uke. Plenty of room for some playful drills as you move across the dojo, perhaps keeping arms down by the side, just to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of body and leg movements alone.

[KempoCat]

ive always been taught when moving, to imagine that im falling... erm how can i explain this...

lets take hidare yoko kani ashi. to move fast and without having to waste excessive movement, imagine your left leg has been taken away and youre falling. i find that its best to practice any of these movements in front of a mirror so you can see if you bob up and down when you do this.. but ive also found that hip movement is very smooth when you get it right..

erm.. im not really the one to explain this, so can anyone above my intelligence jump in (Mr Dunn, Mr Leith)... im really quite tired at the moment, having spent all night revising and looking at the screen throughout the whole night is giving me a headache :cry: :dead:

[Tripitaka of AA]

erm.. im not really the one to explain this, so can anyone above my intelligence jump in ...

Hey Felix, if you've ever tried to move at all, then you're able to contribute to this thread :) . None of us want to end up with a forum where people are uncomfortable about posting. All the views are required, and if the best answers often come from the same people, that's not a problem... it should be an encouragement :karate:

And as your teacher is an 8th dan Hanshi, the chances are that what you are describing is a pretty damn fine answer... :bow:

[Louie Dickens]

I agree that falling into the movement is important. I use this 'negative movement' in all of my movements. I guess what I was stressing is that falling forward or backward is relatively easy, due to the front back distance of your shoulders (about 1-2 feet I guess). The problem with sidestep is that the space is so narrow. If you took one of the stilts off of a flat square building, it would fall pretty fast. But if you took to of the stilts off of something like the Eiffel tower, the initial speed of falling would be much slower. We obviously cannot widen our stances very much because we would open up. So, yes I totally I agree we have to do the negative falling movement (also called musoku no hou=-no feet movement) but on top, much more is needed to move in time. ;)

Well, all practice of movement should start with the leader reminding not to bounce. I just say, don't bounce, or imagine you are under a ceiling 1 cm from your head and move. Or whatever. But by just getting kenshi aware, the bouncing is stopped usually. As for rhythm, I just stagger the count, 1,2.......3......4,5,...when I see that they are thinking ahead, not being in the moment.

Do you guys do the practice where you have pairs in taigamae? One is control, and one is mirror. Using step ins side steps, changing stance, all that, the kenshi just mirrors, always trying to reflect the stance, and stay within attack space (or neutral space-boring!). Tiring, at least, and good for reading movements.

[KempoCat]

Hey Felix, if you've ever tried to move at all, then you're able to contribute to this thread :) . None of us want to end up with a forum where people are uncomfortable about posting. All the views are required, and if the best answers often come from the same people, that's not a problem... it should be an encouragement :karate:

And as your teacher is an 8th dan Hanshi, the chances are that what you are describing is a pretty damn fine answer... :bow:

thanks david. sometimes its a bit unnerving knowing my own experience in comparison with others.

louie i see what you mean, taking initially with moving forwards and backwards. however, i feel that sideways movement is not any different. consider sashikomi ashi. once you have 'fallen' with the front foot, your back foot has to catch up otherwise we just end up doing the splits :rolleyes: one can consider that the backfoot in order to catch up has to exert force i.e. pushing. so i think this is the same with moving sideways. the lagging foot inevitable has to push against the floor to catch up... otherwise its split time again :D i dunno if ive answered the query, but from what i see, its the idea that the lagging foot has to push towards the direction of movement, and also how by lowering your centre of balance such as by bending your knees can actually help in speeding up the movement without excessive pushing force.

we sometimes practice in pairs, mirroring each other. i find that this is very helpful especially with embu practice.

[tracethebass]

I too find sideways movement difficult particularly in ren hanko where I tend to find myself moving forwards or backwards. I can move sideways but I have to think about it more for some reason.
Also, how about adding the jo chu movement (not actually punching or anything, just the 1,2 with the hips you know?) to our kani ashi practice?

This is a good idea and I'm going to try it

we sometimes practice in pairs, mirroring each other. i find that this is very helpful especially with embu practice.
I've done this in training also, I found it useful if you have a partner who tries to catch you out a bit. Unfortunately lots of people, me inclluded, tend to signal there next move with their body language.
Regards Tracey
PS. is there an easy way to qoute others in posts?

[Tripitaka of AA]

PS. is there an easy way to qoute others in posts?

If you hit the button marked "Quote", then all that post will be included in your reply (including the details of who posted it), in a nice format. You can edit the text to trim it down to just a point or phrase you want to respond to...

you could, alternatively, cut and paste the desired text (using your mouse and Left Button to highlight text, then Right Button to pull down a menu with options like copy, cut and paste on it). You can include it in your reply highlighted with bold as you did (square brackets around "b" and "/b" on either side of the text), or to achieve the same format as the first option, use square brackets around the word "quote" and "/unquote"

[David Dunn]

"Naifanchu" Felix? Okinawan I believe, meaning 'moving from the inside first'.

I must confess, I think it's the most difficult aspect of Sensei's teaching this past few years. Gedan gaeshi is one of the best techniques to practice it. See if kosha can block the counterattack. I can sort of do it. If you do the 'usual' pushing off the floor with one foot first, kosha can see even that tiny movement and react to it. If you 'fall' then there are no signals in your ashi sabaki. I understand what he's saying (I think), but to carry it out is not easy.

Lately, I've noticed that the Kyohan (via the Baseball books at least), states that goho hokei start with kosha making fumi komi ashi (e.g. uchi uke zuki and many others). I've always thought of it as sashi komi ashi. It seems like a minor point, but perhaps it is important? Fumi komi ashi is most pronounced in tenchiken hokei, for example, holding kakuritsu dachi after sokuto geri in tenchiken dai gokei, then following with fumi komi, jun zuki. Mizuno Sensei used this to explain naifanchu, and indeed similar movements apparently appear in Karate kata (one of which is called Naifanchu). When you try to make sashi komi (or sashi kae) ashi, why not try to do it with the feeling of fumi komi?

[KempoCat]

"Naifanchu" Felix? Okinawan I believe, meaning 'moving from the inside first'.

I must confess, I think it's the most difficult aspect of Sensei's teaching this past few years. Gedan gaeshi is one of the best techniques to practice it. See if kosha can block the counterattack. I can sort of do it. If you do the 'usual' pushing off the floor with one foot first, kosha can see even that tiny movement and react to it. If you 'fall' then there are no signals in your ashi sabaki. I understand what he's saying (I think), but to carry it out is not easy.

hi david, yes. thats pretty much what i was trying to say. i remember the howa sessions sensei has given about this topic many a time, just couldn't remember the name. and i even remember the other time at brixton dojo, when he gave the howa about distance and timing, and when he asked me to kick him, before my ushiro mawashi geri reached him, he had already pushed me half way across the room. point is that he was able to generate that speed with the movement we're discussing about.

[Louie Dickens]

Hey gang, can you elaborate or find out more info on naifanchu? What system is it from, its principles, etc. Only if you can of course.

So one thing I had noticed in the last few months was through walking namba style. I think I have gotten close to what I want to be doing with this walk, but I always think that before it changes again. Basically walking and feeling how the muscles work. For my namba now, I walk very smoothy with little bump and little side to side head movement. The shoulders and hips are constantly rotating, way more than normal walking. The hips and shoulders move in line as one. When the right shoulder/hip goes forward, the left leg/foot goes forward, and vice versa. So it is a crossed walk. The arms, because they are loose and rotating at the shoulder, end up being in time, and staying on the opposite side, like normal walking. I understand this is confusing to people who know namba as walking with left leg forward/left arm forward. But this is misleading, because the rule of namba is shoulder/hip in line, not hand/feet in line. So this is why Kono Yoshinori talks about namba, and says it is not what people think it is. I think. Anyways, back to umpo. Because it is a crossed movement, I really started to feel the front foot pulling my body. It is done by using the inside muscles of your ankle/foot/shin area. This is a movement I had not done in my 28 years, and it is hard to do. As the front inside leg pulls inside, the back leg does the exact opposite, and it is like a criss crossing movement. I am sad that this is so confusing, but this is the best I can explain.

You can really use it for forward sashikae, or juji ashi when going sideways, but it helps to use the upper body splitting mentioned above when going really sideways to go faster.

One way to feel the pulling motion I am talking about is to stand on your left lef, and using only your foot muscles, knee (no arm/upper body) turn your body/head/hips as one toward your left. Really feel the inside muscles.


At any rate, because it uses equal pulling/pushing movements, it is faster, and more balanced with the universe.

[TonyU]

Hey gang, can you elaborate or find out more info on naifanchu? What system is it from, its principles, etc. Only if you can of course.

Also called Naihanchi. See here.
http://www.wadokai.ee/kyuproge/naihanchi.jpg
Keep in mind that's only one version of it.

[David Dunn]

Thanks Tony, I knew it had another name too, but I was thinking 'naihanchu'. In any case I got it wrong, since it looks like it should be 'naifuanchi'.

Louie, I have practically no knowledge of karate-do at all. This is what Mizuno Sensei said a few times over the last couple of years. He said that he had revisited the Okinawan karatedo texts - I am not sure which ones. He argued that karatedo had become heavily 'americanised' even in Japan, and the emphasis was now on power and strength. However, the original intent was softness. "Moving inside first" is hard to explain I guess, but he says that he imagines a ball, half-full of water, inside him where the seika tanden is - I had an image of one of those washing machine balls resting on some towels for some reason! This ball moves before anything else - the body follows it. He started to say that pushing off the floor with one foot was not the optimum way of ashi sabaki, rather this 'falling down' idea. I did a quick google search:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=221

If you scroll down there is a section on naifuanchi, including some pictures of Motobu demonstrating it. It's interesting that in Japanese, the motion is called 'nami gaeshi' (sound familiar?), but it is very similar to kakuritsu ken hokei, as well as parts of tenchiken.

The link doesn't seem to explain that naihanchi/naifuanchi means 'moving inside first'. Since Shorinji Kempo and Shotokan are derived from Chinese systems, one might not be that surprised to find similar ideas and form. The link also doesn't say what Sensei described, as naifuanchi having the meaning of disguised movement (i.e. not readable by the opponent). If anyone can read the original manuals (Louie?) there might be some good stuff in there.

Final note: Fuji Sensei also said that ashi sabaki begins 'inside', at seika tanden, at the University Seminar a couple of years ago.

[David Dunn]

p.s. I found a copy of Gichin Funakoshi's "Karatedo: my way of life" in a charity shop a few months ago. It is something that is well, well worth reading.

[tony_leith]

I'm not familiar with most of the texts being referred to (though I have read -and been impressed by - Master Fumakoshi's autobiography). However, this is something (the 'falling forward/backward/sideways') that I've been trying to implement in my own training since being introduced to it by Mizuno Sensei in the last couple of years.

As I understand this principle, the aim of ashi sabaki in Shorinjikempo is above all to complete the movement quickly - changing position/stance almost invariably implies a condition of kyo relative to an opponent/partner, or else why do it? The act of movement in itself is also going to create opportunities for a counterattack, as to some degree your attention is going to be on your movement and what you intend to accomplish by it, rather than what your partner/opponent might be trying to do to you.

If you watch a toddler learning to walk, it's obvious that what they're doing is basically getting their bodies to topple forwards, and then moving their legs frantically to avoid the otherwise inevitable consequence of falling flat on their faces. As we get more adept at fine muscular control and coordinating our body movements, the fact that in walking we're basically trading potential energy - with our centre of gravity being a certain distance off the ground - for kinetic energy becomes less apparent to us.

When we start to try to learn actions like sashi komi ashi, there does seem to be a tendency to want to generate ompetus by 'springing' off the back foot. It seems to be faster, but in a counterintuitive way it actually creates tension in the body which impairs your ability to flow through the movement.

There is an obvious parallel between this and using body weight and timing to generate impetus in atemi waza as opposed to muscular power. The latter approach requires muscular tension, which impedes fluid movement. I used to employ the analogy in teaching of a sprinter coming out of the blocks to describe where the power comes from in gyaku zuki - driving from the back foot. This wasn't wholly wrong, but wasn't onducive to getting students to concentrate on generating power by just committing their body weight to atemi waza. For me, thinking about everything coming from the body's centre of gravity has been key to progessing towards unstanding these ideas and their application.

Tony Leith

[Tripitaka of AA]

Someone more tuned in than me (there are many), would spot that there is a lot to be gained from "teaching", when it comes to learning. In other words (which might perhaps make more sense), you can learn a lot by trying to teach.

[tracethebass]

p.s. I found a copy of Gichin Funakoshi's "Karatedo: my way of life" in a charity shop a few months ago. It is something that is well, well worth reading.
Just read it, got it for my birthday.
The one thing that struck me was his wife must have been very understanding!
Regards Tracey

[Brian Lim]

Hi David Dunn,


""Moving inside first" is hard to explain I guess, but he says that he imagines a ball, half-full of water, inside him where the seika tanden is - I had an image of one of those washing machine balls resting on some towels for some reason! This ball moves before anything else - the body follows it."

Is it like, for example, you and a friend faces each other. Your friend will hold a 'bo' or 'jo' and hold it horizontally and will be pushing the staff firmly against your hara. Your friend will be pushing the staff towards your back, which is to his front, and you just walk to your front, which is towards your friend. So, in this case, your movement will be moving the hara to the front. Is it like that? I have never tried it before, I just read it from a book which I forgot its name, and it explains that if you think about moving your hara from one place to another, you wouldnt bob up and down.

Anyways, I beg your pardon because I am very bad at explaining things.

[David Dunn]

Brian,
my honest answer is that I don't know! I imagine it would be the same idea ultimately - that you move from the hara first.