History of Taekwon-Do (Highly Political)

Dear All,

I would greatly enjoy a friendly discussion / debate regarding individual understandings and opinions regarding the history and origins of Taekwon-Do.
We have a diverse group of mature and intellegent individuals here that will be able to make good points regardless of whether we agree or not. Lets have a good showing and carry on the standard that his forum is known for!

(Moderator: Having seen the recent acts of "Random Ignorance" I would appreciate an extra eye to assist in the growth of this thread and to protect it from getting shut down because of one or two less than mature individuals!)

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

Michael, care to elaborate what historical origins you are looking for? Are you going as far back as the Koguryo and Silla kingdoms and their implimentations of Subak and Taekkyon, or the "creation" of modern TaeKwonDo as an intregration of Korean arts under one name?

Curious what you're looking for. Happy to discuss what I-think-I-know versus what others-think-that-they-know. ;)

Regards,

Adam Miller

I think that at some point, from whatever base art, Taekyon emerged as a folk game. The Koreans later upgraded it from "game" to "martial art" by mixing in elements from Karate (mainly Shotokan). This is when the various styles emerged due to differences in opinion about exactly how much Karate should be incorporated with the Taekyon. There is a full range from Tang Soo Do all the way to pure Taekyon.

From my understanding, the Sunbae warriors of the Koguryo(est 37BC) kingdom adopted Subak(hand techniques) and Taekyyon(mainly foot techniques) as a response to the aggressive Han (Chinese) forces to the North. Now, the roots of both ancient arts are kind of lost on me, although I assume influence from Japanese and Chinese arts/techniques.

The smaller Silla kingdom(57 BC), fearful of attack from Japanese pirates, emulated the training of the Sunbae of Koguyo and developed their own warrior class, the Hwarang.

Taekyyon did have folk origins, however, and the Koguryo kingdom held a contest annually (sometime in March IIRC?), and in the spirit of imitation, Silla did the same.

With the advent of the Koryo dynasty in 1392, the kingdoms were more-or-less unified, and Takekyyon skill in competition was used as measure of a soldiers merit, namely for rank as an officer.

The Chosun dynasty of 1592-1910 saw a movement towards literary art focus rather than martial art.

With Japanese occupation, these arts were forced to go underground, passed on by masters until Japanese rule ended in 1945(?) and the Korean arts flourished.

I'll stop there, as this is probably superfluous to begin with, and I'm not entirely familiar with the General's establishing the ITF.

I know WTF was formed in the early seventies, but I'm too lazy to look up the year. I can't believe I remembered anything else, actually.

-Adam Miller

::Edit: -If I'm wrong with dates or misinformed with anything, let me know! My memory isn't what it used to be. Not that it was great to begin with, but whatever. Thanks! -AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKDKracker007

although I assume influence from Japanese and Chinese arts/techniques.

The first Korean kingdom (Ko-Josun) was established in 2333 BC, while that of Japan happened only in 400 AD as Yamato.
Thus, Korean culture was more advanced than that of Japan, influencing Japan even before the Yayoi period. This continued on in the Three Kingdom period in Korea, in which Baekjae particularly had a heavy influence on the development of Japan.

Now, this view is shared by the Japanese themselves.

Thus it is fair to say that your assumption on the Japanese influence is wrong. I would say it was more of the other way around.

Also I agree that Takkyon was more of a game than a martial art. I've seen it and I don't think it was designed to cause damages.

Taekwon-Do....

Dear All,

I am looking more specifically for discussion concerning the post occupation art of Taekwon-Do!

Going back to the three kingdoms is (in my opinion) equivalent to starting with the caveman throwing a rock in discussion regarding the modern firearm!

Question...was Taekwon-Do created in post occupation Korea or is it thousands of years old? Who were the first individuals to practice the system of Taekwon-Do as opposed to the previously practices Japanese and Okinawan systems?

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookey

Going back to the three kingdoms is (in my opinion) equivalent to starting with the caveman throwing a rock in discussion regarding the modern firearm!

Maybe, but it is almost the same thing, same action in search of the same desired effect. The modern firearm is but a refinement.

But enough with semantics and all.

Taekwondo is the name given to a system (assembled from blablablablah). Those who first coined the name TKD would be first to practice it.

I'm sure that isn't what you meant either, so I'll just go sit in my corner. :bow:

-Adam

Hey, Spookey, I don't claim to have a huge knowledge of this subject; but I do know there is several extensive threads on this subject over at Bullshido. I have heard that TKD is really nothing more than "Koreanized" karate...and frankly, I tend to believe it from what I've heard. Not that I care...I love TKD no matter its origins. Peace.

Tae Kwon Do according to Tae Kwon Do: The Korean Art of Self-Defense is thousands of years old. That was written by General Choi.

However, from what I've collected, a bunch of the Kwan's joined up together at a meeting and General Choi suggested the name Tae Kwon Do, because of its similarity to Tae Kyon.

Of course, I definitely could be wrong! :bow:

The meeting was in the 50s, so the art under the name TKD is only about a half-century.

Interesting, that General Choi who is credited (by most non-WTF supporters) with being the inventor of Taekwondo, himself wrote that it's thousands of years old. I would be willing to bet that modern Taekwondo...even Taekwondo in 1955...looks NOTHING like the native Korean arts of thousands of years ago.

What everyone needs to realize, is that in the fifties Korea was riding the high of overcoming their Japanese oppressors. Korean nationalism was at a high-point, and Taekwondo was a vehicle for that sense of nationalism. So of course, Taekwondo's history was romanticized and embelished-upon to make it more-representative of the pulse of the nation.

Next thing you know, an art that's only a few years old has roots that go back to the time of Christ. Throw in a few "legends" about the Hwarang-do, and now you've got yourself a history to be proud of.

I cringe every time I hear a 5th Dan telling a classroom full of students about how the Kingdom of Silla overcame Kogoryo and Baekje, because they had the Hwarang-do "warriors" who were trained in the same two-thousand-year-old Taekwondo that we do today.

Not to mention all the political manuevering and back-stabbing going on to take control of various aspects of Korean life that had been controlled by the Japanese. It simply isn't possible to get a 100% accurate picture of the birth and early years of TKD because there are too many lies, egos, and agendas involved to ever sort it out. Probably the best you can say is that the first inklings of the TKD name came out in 1955, the original KTA with Choi as President was founded in 1959, the ITF was founded in 1966 and moved to Canada in 1972, the WTF was founded in 1973, and the IOC designated TKD in 1982 as a demonstration sport for the 1988 Olympics, and finally became an official sport in 2000. All the rest is ego-puffing, so ignore it and get back to training.

Quote:

All the rest is ego-puffing, so ignore it and get back to training.

Amen to that. :wink2:

Kwando Ked...

Dear Young Sir,

I have referenced all three of the major renditions (the original english text, the 1972, and the most recent)...cant find what you stated anywhere!

I think I am familiar with the portion you are referenceing. Please take the time to read it again and clarify your position!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwando_ked

Tae Kwon Do according to Tae Kwon Do: The Korean Art of Self-Defense is thousands of years old. That was written by General Choi.

However, from what I've collected, a bunch of the Kwan's joined up together at a meeting and General Choi suggested the name Tae Kwon Do, because of its similarity to Tae Kyon.

Of course, I definitely could be wrong! :bow:

You are correct. As far as I can tell, no one has really gone in to the proper TKD history starting with the 1950s and looking at how it spread, especially to North Korea, and also why the ITF - WTF formed and why Choi ended up in Canada. Anyone who mentions '2000 years' is deluding himself. Ditto Hapkido. Ditto many other arts save Takyeon, which was by some accounts, a game. If you have 'access' to an elder TKD teacher, try to prise a little information from him and post it here :)

In the meantime, read this:
http://www.bstkd.com/CAPENER.1.HTM

Repeating the following probably will not help you at your next grading. But, in the FWIW department...

Late 20th century Korean schoolbooks will tell you that in October, 2333 BCE, Tan'gun Wang'gom, the legendary progenitor of the Korean people, ascended to heaven. The base document is called Samguk Yusa, and the oldest known copy dates to 1279 CE. In case your math skills aren't real good, that's about 3600 years later. Consequently, this counts as religious exegesis rather than documented history.

For documented history, fast forward a couple thousand years, to about 1562 CE, and the publication of Ch'i Chi-kuang's treatise Chi'hsiao hsin-shu, or "New Text of Practical Tactics." General Ch'i's military martial art borrowed techniques from as many as 23 northern Shaolin schools, taking what the Ming Dynasty military trainers thought was best from each. The idea was that the training would promote agility, improve physical conditioning, and instill a combative spirit.

A version of Chi's book was published in Korea about 1759. The translation was called "Outline of Arms and Techniques through Diagrams." The writer, Cheok Gye-gwang, wrote in classical Chinese rather than Hangul, and placed emphasis on learning the 40 different vital points. Strong strikes to these points were said to impede breathing, paralyze muscles, damage circulation, and cause shock. According to the text, these strikes worked best against an opponent who had lost his balance or was tired.

Not much there about spinning back kicks, I'm afraid.

For those, you need to move forward again, to the early 20th century. For documentation, see Eric Madis's chapter on the subject in "Martial Arts in the Modern World," edited by Green and Svinth, 2003. The following is a really quick (and cribbed) summary.

* Chungdokwan. Lee Kwon-kuk began studying Shotokan in Japan during the 1930s. Lee began teaching tangsoodo in Korea in 1944.

* Songmookwan. Ro Byung-jik began studying Shotokan in Japan during the 1930s. Ro started teaching kongsoodo in what became North Korea right after WWII, and in Pusan, South Korea, just before the start of the Korean War.

* Yunmookwan. Pioneers include Chun Sang-sup, who had learned Shito-ryu or Shotokan karate in Japan before WWII.

* YMCA Kwonbup Bu. Yun Byung-in studied Northern Shaolin (probably a Cannon Fist variant) and Yang taijiquan, probably in Shanghai or Manchuria, prior to WWII. In 1937, Yun moved to Japan, where he studied Shudokan karate. He returned to Korea in 1945.

* Jidokwan. Yun Kwei-byung began his study of Shito-ryu under Kenwa Mabuni while still in high school. In college, he trained with Kanken Toyama. Yun is remembered mostly for his emphasis on sparring, especially with padded protective gear. The Renbukai Dojo, in Tokyo, was established by Yun in 1940. He returned to Korea in 1948.

* Moodukkwan. By his own account, Hwang Kee built his art from three sources: 15 months study of quanfa, self-study of taekyon as a youth, and self-study of books on Okinawan karate (Hwang, 1995: 9-18).

Finally, General Choi. In 1953, General Choi assigned Nam Tae-hi and Han Cha-kyo (students of Lee Won-kuk) as senior tangsoodo instructors. (That was what they called it back then.) Nam had taught tangsoodo at the ROK Army Signal School since 1947. In September 1954, Nam, Han, and their students performed a demonstration of tangsoodo for ROK president Rhee Syngman. Subsequently, Rhee expressed his desire for all ROK Army troops to be trained in what he preferred to call taekyon (Kim, 2000). Consequently, in late 1954, a new gymnasium was built for the 29th Division. Choi named this gym the Ohdokwan, and he staffed it with instructors from the Chungdokwan. The following year (1955), Choi assembled a committee to decide upon a new name for Korean karate. Through a process of compromise between those preferring taekyon-do (referring to the traditional Korean game) and those preferring tangsoodo or kongsoodo, the term taekwondo (t'aegwondo) was chosen. Choi especially liked the term because it referred to both kicking (tae) and hand (kwon) techniques. Rhee eventually accepted the taekwondo name, and it was first implemented at Ohdokwan and Chungdokwan schools.

While I was writing the last post, Rupert snuck in and asked about General Choi going to Canada. For that, the key words are the Olympics, the Kukkikwon, and Kim Un-yong. Again, cribbed from Eric Madis's chapter in Green and Svinth, 2003.

QUOTE

On March 20, 1971, President Park proclaimed taekwondo as Korea's national sport, designating its full name as kukki (national) taekwondo... About the same time (January 23, 1971), Park appointed Kim Un-yong (born 1931) as president of the Korean Taekwondo Association. Kim was at the time an assistant director of both the Korean CIA (KCIA) and the Presidential Protection Force.

According to Kim, "I accepted the position of KTA president because the Korean government told me to correct the way taekwondo was at that time" (Kang and Yi, 1999: Chapter 3, Section 2). According to Choi (1981), "Park wanted access to the ITF. He saw it could be a powerful muscle for his dictatorship." Either way, for refusing to hand over the leadership of the ITF to the KCIA, Choi was threatened with jail, which prompted him to relocate to Canada (Jennings, 1996: Chapter 9).

END QUOTE

Taekwon-Do History...

Dear All,

Research based on realistic sources of inquiry have lead me to accept the following as fact regarding the history of Taekwon-Do. (It is in the immediate future that I expect the debate to begin!)

During the occupation of Korea by the Japanese Empire the traditional martial arts of the Han people were forced underground and suppressed to the border of extenction. The three major arts practiced by Korean's people were Kendo, Judo, and Karate-Do. The majority of this training took place due in part to either travel to Japan due to educational purposese or during travel due to impossed military service under Japanese rule.

Bringing Karate back to the Korean peninsula it became popular amongst the Han people as a form of self defense and a self confidence building device. I believe that Chinese influences as well as previous traditional arts (such as Tae Kyon) openly integrated through the Karate practitioners and the effects shown in the difference in kicking emphasis and technical expression. Thus a Korean form of Karate-Do refered to as Tang Soo Do. This style displayed various expressions between the original kwans (five in all) but was primarily based around the Shorin-Ryu and Shotokan Kata.

Some senior students of the Chung Do Kwan began study and training in the techniques of General Choi (men including Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo). In accordance with there theoretical findings and past research done by Choi Hong Hi they began to develope a stand alone system with new concept and theory as well as a new set of hyungs (although somewhat under construction and modification). These hyungs would begin to suplement the Heian Kata in training. Kicking received a greater emphasis than in other expressions of post occupation Korean martial arts and a new system was well under way.

In the year of 1955 the government set out to unite the kwans and unite the Han people under a new banner and non-Japanese art. The name Taekwon-Do was accepted by the masses (not all kwans would join). This lasted for a while until the name of Tae Soo Do was brought into usage. Finally, the name was returned to Taekwon-Do and thus the begining of Taekwon-Do. However, only the name was adopted by the masses and they were still in actuality practicing Karate-Do (Tang Soo Do) under the title of Taekwon-Do. Only the Oh Do Kwan (the sixth kwan) and the Chung Do Kwan (then under the oversight of General Choi) would adopt the new hyungs and methodology of the physical cirriculum of Taekwon-Do.

At this point you had two core groups, those that practiced Tang Soo Do (Karate-Do) while using the title Taekwon-Do, and the other practicing a revised art with a defined methodology seperate from that of Karate-Do...they were the true practitioners of Taekwon-Do!

(We can visit the exhile of General Choi as well as the founding of Taekwon-Do part II (WTF-Kukkiwon) in my next installment)

Begin tearing this appart in the mean time!

TAEKWON!
SPooKeY

Quote:

Only the Oh Do Kwan (the sixth kwan) and the Chung Do Kwan (then under the oversight of General Choi) would adopt the new hyungs and methodology of the physical cirriculum of Taekwon-Do.

Are you sure that they're the 6th kwan? There were a total of 14, 5 original. Oh Do Kwan wasn't established till 1959 I think. Details are usually sketchy on the order of kwan opening after the original 5.

Quote:

At this point you had two core groups, those that practiced Tang Soo Do (Karate-Do) while using the title Taekwon-Do, and the other practicing a revised art with a defined methodology seperate from that of Karate-Do...they were the true practitioners of Taekwon-Do!

Care to elaborate on the separate "defined methodology"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwando_ked

Tae Kwon Do according to Tae Kwon Do: The Korean Art of Self-Defense is thousands of years old. That was written by General Choi.

However, from what I've collected, a bunch of the Kwan's joined up together at a meeting and General Choi suggested the name Tae Kwon Do, because of its similarity to Tae Kyon.

Of course, I definitely could be wrong! :bow:

This has become a highly debated point in the TKD world. Some claim General Choi did not introduce the term "Tae Kwon Do," and that rather it was a group effort. For example WTF schools make little reference to General Choi. Might be a political thing as it could be seen by the public that since General Choi made up the name that his version of TKD would be the true TKD. However, like most of Korean Martial Arts history, this has fallen into debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookey

Dear All,

During the occupation of Korea by the Japanese Empire the traditional martial arts of the Han people were forced underground and suppressed to the border of extenction.

Begin tearing this appart in the mean time!
SPooKeY

So, one has to ask, what were the arts that became extinct? As far as I can tell, there were few, if any, Korean 'civilian' martial arts that survived the 500 year Yi Dynsasty other than what could be found amidst a group of soldiers. And indeed, were therye actually any arts beyond simple military drills before the Yi Dynasty? Confucian society prasied the scholar and looked down upon the military (unlike Japan). I have asked several Korean historians to call me if they EVER come across a reference to a true Korean art in their studies - I am still waiting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth

For documented history, fast forward a couple thousand years, to about 1562 CE, and the publication of Ch'i Chi-kuang's treatise Chi'hsiao hsin-shu, or "New Text of Practical Tactics." General Ch'i's military martial art borrowed techniques from as many as 23 northern Shaolin schools, taking what the Ming Dynasty military trainers thought was best from each. The idea was that the training would promote agility, improve physical conditioning, and instill a combative spirit.

A version of Chi's book was published in Korea about 1759. The translation was called "Outline of Arms and Techniques through Diagrams." The writer, Cheok Gye-gwang, wrote in classical Chinese rather than Hangul, and placed emphasis on learning the 40 different vital points. Strong strikes to these points were said to impede breathing, paralyze muscles, damage circulation, and cause shock. According to the text, these strikes worked best against an opponent who had lost his balance or was tired.

Are they Korean or Chinese books? Where did you get them? Chinese and Korean, I mean.

book references

Hi Rupert,

The latter book Joe mentioned is the Mu Yae Do Bo Tong Ji. Though published in Korea, it was largely a reprinting of the earlier Chinese treatise and, as such, a catalogue of chuan-fa (kwon bup) from China.

Rick

Oh - that one - I have a copy somewhere. I thought for a moment there might have been another one. Oh well ...

Anyway - that book is a military manual, and more than one school of martial arts in Korea has opened its pages trying to re-invent stuff. Not altogether bad, but the stuff in there is not so much a martial art as a military manual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rupertmja

I have asked several Korean historians to call me if they EVER come across a reference to a true Korean art in their studies - I am still waiting...

I can't believe you haven't come across the references regarding "Subakhi"

(Roughly translated by myself, with my own explanations in brackets)
in Koryo-Sa (a History of Koryo Dynasty):
- "In the third year, fifth month of the King Chung-Hye, the King himself watched the Subakhi tournament".

-"It is forbidden to bet and gamble on the results of the Subakhi tournament, and the violators are punished"

in Dong-Sa-Gang-Mok (written during the Koryo Dynasty as well):
- "the King himself performed Subakhi"

- "when Yi Ue-Min (a general of the army) punched the pillar of a house, the rafters on the house were shaken and moved. When Du Gyung-Seung (another general) punched the wall, his fist penetrated it".

I guess the historians aren't giving you much attention, considering how prevalent the records are. :wink2:

Also, Subakhi was still not lost in Josun Dynasty.

in "Te-Jong Sil Loc" (the record of the King Te-Jong's reign):
- "when selecting the soldiers for Uhungbu (a military branch of the army), a Subakhi tournament was held, and the three winners of the tournament were hired as shieldsmen"

in "Se-Jong Sil Loc" (the record of the King Se-Jong's reign):
- "when it was announced that those who are proficient at Subakhi were to be hired into the military, low-ranking officials and governmental slaves feverishly practiced Subakhi"

Now, I can't quite understand how Subakhi became lost, looking at the historical fact that it was widely practiced and even sponsored by the government to an extent. It really baffles me, and sometimes even angers me as a Korean.

But still I accept that Taekwondo is a modern creation, based on Karate. (in its early days it was almost identical to Karate, including its patters/katas/poomse). I don't think it has any direct connection to genuine Korean styles of the past.

Takkyon is Takkyon. Taekwondo is Taekwondo.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen the true form of Subakhi. I'd love to see it in its original form. :mad:

So with all the controversy surrounding TKD's origins and the strong possibility that it is actually just a 50 year old modification of some other art... does the lack of a clear history damage the credibility of the style as a martial art? I mean, we often hear it said that styles like some jujutsus have "stood the test of time" or "proven themselves effective for hundreds of years". How important is a known history? How about a traceable lineage to the base art?

Quote:

And beyond that, I have to say in all honesty, ridiculous as it sounds, that TKD in the UK and the US (and elsewhere) is generally much better than what you find in South Korea. Here in Korea, the average student does not train half as hard, nor do they take it as seriously.

Rupert, you are the second Korean person here at BudoSeek to post that. The first member [in a different TKD thread] went so far as to say Korea is THE home of the original McDojo's. The U.S. really wasn't the first to dream up franchising MA's for monetary returns. And we weren't the first to dream up 8 year old Grand Super Ultimate Masters. OK, the last statement was a BIT of an exaggeration.

My apologies for the thread drift, but I find your statement very interesting. I think so many people the world over have this "ideal" of what TKD is like in Korea, and your statement rings a volume of truth that many do not realize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KudaraTaekwon

But still I accept that Taekwondo is a modern creation, based on Karate. (in its early days it was almost identical to Karate, including its patters/katas/poomse). I don't think it has any direct connection to genuine Korean styles of the past.

Takkyon is Takkyon. Taekwondo is Taekwondo.

The only direct connection, by my reckoning, that modern TKD has to traditional Korean arts would be a few (by my outsider's understanding) undeniable connections to Taekkyon, specifically the flying kicks that the WTF is so fond of in demonstrations. If Taekkyon was indeed more of a folk-game in its origins, it would do much to explain the emphasis that exists even today on aerial target kicking within non-ITF schools (and some of the "younger" ITF schools as well), many of which have little martial application or intent. With that said, these Taekkyon influences could have been added long after the 50's gathering, with the forming (and pre-forming) of the WTF.
Taekwondo's hand techniques and basic leg techniques are definitely Karate-influenced if not merely Karate in disguise, but I've never seen any traditional Karateka (emphasis on traditional, don't even start on American or "Freestyle" Karate) pull one of those impressive yet mostly useless flying kick techniques.

Just my two cents, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Seuferling

Rupert, you are the second Korean person here at BudoSeek to post that. The first member [in a different TKD thread] went so far as to say Korea is THE home of the original McDojo's. The U.S. really wasn't the first to dream up franchising MA's for monetary returns. And we weren't the first to dream up 8 year old Grand Super Ultimate Masters. OK, the last statement was a BIT of an exaggeration.

My apologies for the thread drift, but I find your statement very interesting. I think so many people the world over have this "ideal" of what TKD is like in Korea, and your statement rings a volume of truth that many do not realize.

My post you quoted seems to have disapeared ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by KudaraTaekwon

I can't believe you haven't come across the references regarding "Subakhi"

(Roughly translated by myself, with my own explanations in brackets)
in Koryo-Sa (a History of Koryo Dynasty):
- "In the third year, fifth month of the King Chung-Hye, the King himself watched the Subakhi tournament".

...

I guess the historians aren't giving you much attention, considering how prevalent the records are. :wink2:

I have heard of Subak but had not heard of the points you mentioned. I'll draw certain people's attention to them and see what I can dig up.

Cheers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Seuferling

Rupert, you are the second Korean person here at BudoSeek to post that. The first member [in a different TKD thread] went so far as to say Korea is THE home of the original McDojo's. The U.S. really wasn't the first to dream up franchising MA's for monetary returns. And we weren't the first to dream up 8 year old Grand Super Ultimate Masters. OK, the last statement was a BIT of an exaggeration.

My apologies for the thread drift, but I find your statement very interesting. I think so many people the world over have this "ideal" of what TKD is like in Korea, and your statement rings a volume of truth that many do not realize.

TKD and kids - thats the norm, and now they have synchronised TKD performances to music - even on the TV - (for kids). All the kids do their moves in unison - from is distance it looks pretty cool but put your eye on one kid and you generally won't see very good form - but everyone thinks it is good.

Hapkido fares slightly better in terms of adult attendance and certain other arts do much better. Takyeon has lots of adults and they train pretty hard. One Gicheonmun class I saw was all adults and they trained REALLY hard. Also saw a Teuk-kong Musul class with mostly kids and they trained really hard too - not much into technique and more into acrobatics, but good vehicles for learning IF they continue to adulthood. Also saw Seonmudo, a newish art based in a temple down south. Very impressive, rather serene, and no concocted history - the monk said they 'made' it about 17 years ago (in 2000 or so). What I have seen here is many TKDing foreingers coming to Korea and expecting heaven - they usually have to go a long way to find and train in a good club whereas others either quit, or switch arts. It's not only Korea, I saw the same in Japan too with certain Japanese arts.

Has anyone read the history by Dakin Burdick?

I was thinking about using it for my hope-to-up and running-soon website but now I don't know. Give it a read and tell me if you are in general agreement that this wouldn't drive you crazy to know it's in existence.

A History of Tae Kwon Do by Dakin Burdick

While, as a Korean, I am proud of the history of my people and our martial arts, I have to acknowledge the strong influence Japanese (and Chinese) martial arts have had on the development of modern Taekwondo. I can recognize the chinese influence, particularly in some of the footwork and hand techniques, and the Japanese influence is obvious. I was more surprised when I saw some old videos of Taekyon practitioners "sparring." I can definately see the influence of taekyon in the kicking techniques of modern TKD.

Regarding the difference between TKD in Korea and in US/Europe, I would also have to agree. Most of my male relatives in Korea have at least their 1-dan, but most do not consider themselves to be martial artists, as they do not really train. It is common for some people to get their 1-dan in as little as 6 months of training. Although I have seen many "watered-down" tkd schools in the US, I have never seen anyone in America receive blackbelt (through training) in such a short period of time. Of course, I have seen plenty of self-proclaimed experts take one or two seminars, send a check to some so-called martial arts organization and receive a high-degree ranking by mail-order. Grrr....that's a separate rant.

Hehe...just an aside. Everytime I read "subak" i think of watermelon. haha...

:D

I haven't been back on here in about a month.. and after coming back..

Some good reading. Unfortunately I can't really add too much more, but this is very informative.