The Future of things to come

Greetings,

The transmition of the koryu bujutsu to the West (and to the East in many situations) has left us all with a 100 pieces short of a 1000 piece jigsaw.

I mean, the methods such as judo and aikido have gained a world wide popularity and recognition. Now, grantted, the koryu do not transmit well from one to a large group, but now they have begun to surface...

We are seeing several who claim to teach koryu, but they don't. But of the few who actually do, what does the future hold for them?

The world has developed a perseption of the Japanese Martial Arts (which on the whole is inaccurate) so now the koryu are seeping out from the wood work, how can these perceptions be desolved?

What do you think the future holds for the koryu bujutsu ryuha?

Take care

Lawrence.

I have wondered too. I hope that in the hands of a few capable and knowledgeable instructors that the koryu bujutsu can flourish in the West. However, as you said, the koryu weren't designed for the masses, so I don't know if we will see widespread koryu..but perhaps this is for the best.

I note that MJER is being taught in a kind of gendai budo manner..and seems to be doing very well, but I'm not sure if this way would or should be accepted by other ryu.

Guess only time will tell.

Hi there,

Personally I feel that one of the massive differences between shin budo and koryu bujutsu is the transmition. The koryu are not a collection of techniques, as you see in most modern martial arts classes. The kata consisted of many motions and postures, but these tend to be done in a way which alllows the participants time and chance to maintain the correct mental posture, the right spirit and move correctly in good posture throughout.

This would not suit many people because it does not give oyu the same sense of achievement, or at least, not imidiately.

To uderstand and pay homage to a koryu is to be part of a long stem of family, this is not something which the Western world is ready to embrace just yet.

Personally, I do not see any of the koryu leaving Japan. Sure, there will be this ryu and that popping up, but once they begin to teach, deviate from the intial idea or begin to play, it no longer remains koryu, but rather becomes something new. Something which then belogs to the one who changed it. So it would be a new school which is heavily based upon teachings from this or that ryu.

Just my thought on the matter...

:)

Take care

Lawrence.

I also practice MJER iai outside of Japan. Our group is lucky enough to be able to practice not only the iai elements of MJER, but also the tachi-uchi-no-kurai and the tsumi-ai-no-kurai kenjutsu forms.

It's a shame that very few sensei (both inside and outside of Japan) have been able to carry on the full MJER curriculum (kodachi, bo, yawara elements).

Ah well, can't have everything.... :)

Scott

Hi there.

Thanks for that Scott. It is true that their are several exponents of koryu around the Western world, but I do feel that it is a good thing that the Western representatives are only aloud to teach a very finite amount of the curriculum because this way the development of the ryuha can be monitored. It also gives the representative the opportunity to practice what they do, rather than compromise and train with a different art.

What consequences do you think that this type of limitted transmition will bring to the future of the martial arts in general or to the survival of the koryu as a whole?

Anyway, take care,

Lawrence Fisher.

Lawrence-
The transmissions that I am aware of our more personal. Yes, we learn the kata and the techniques and variations but the transmission is subtly different. At one point my instructor decided that I understood the tradition and, above all, would not shame the name... so it was now my duty to teach.

I carry the giri of seventeen generations of Japanese Shihan and five more western instructors. An unbroken line of people who said "You understand and will not shame us."

Rory

Hi there,

Thanks for that Rory. This is what I was saying,

Quote:

---

At one point my instructor decided that I understood the tradition and, above all, would not shame the name... so it was now my duty to teach.

---

So you have been given the privilage to teach certain aspects from that school. This makes it more of a tresure as it is personal, a communication between yourself, instructor and school.

So it is now your duty to the school to presurve their teachings.

Thanks again.

Take care,

Lawrence Fisher

I feel hopeful, actually, since there are many dedicated bujutsu exponents out there. The threat of degradation will always be there, but a few things should help preserve sincere practice:

1) Strong ties and frequent communication/interaction with the honbu dojo in Japan. This also demonstrates understanding of the relationship between satellite dojo and the honbu dojo; activities that have already been going on, such as trips to Japan or hosting visiting sensei/soke, will strengthen the bond.

2) Careful selection of students. The small classroom size-argument is a good one, and the best way for the koryu is to stay small. Part of this isn't much a concern necessarily, because of the amount of dedication required. As long as standards are kept high (and are reinforced by interaction with the honbu dojo), students not really cut out for it will probably find another art.

3) Growing scholarship and discourse. Even over the time I've been alive, the perception of martial arts and the resources available on them have changed drastically. The standards and quality of discourse about koryu have improved, and should be an active agent in enforcing the quality of some aspects of the teaching.

Just some thoughts!

Nicholas Lauridsen

My Dear Mr. Lawrence--Glad to see you again. Best wishes.
Koryu stays with the scroll or scrolls of the Ryu. There is no deviation. At times a Henka will erupt but the core principles of the matrix remain the same.Without the Mokoruku and the Kokoro etc there is nothing--MU.
Without a thorough knowledge of Japanese to read the scrolls, the movementas,principles, garb etc of the Ryu,there in no koryu. In fact it becomes Gendai like Aikido, JuJutsu,Iaido etc.
The 18 subjects take a long time to master.And it is costly for the YOROI, SHINKEN,TESSEN etc.Koryu is expensive.
Very few outside of Japan can let alone afford it except in reading books and fantacizing. Few Gaijin can do genuine ,honto Koryu.
Protracted stays in Japan are necessary. Also the days of the Shogunate Tents are GONE---vanished.
Reality is reality.
Kindest personal regards,

Dear Nicholas Lauridson:
Your three main views and thoughts are well taken.
Koryu demands what you have alluded to and much more.
Few Gaijin can do Koryu--let alone envision it or afford it.
For the chosen few is Koryu.
Gendai is best for the mostest.
Respectfully yours,

Hello,

Posted by Lawrence Fisher:

"Personally, I do not see any of the koryu leaving Japan."
_____________

The above statement is incorrect both in fact and perception. Some Koryu have already left Japan and are being successfully taught beyond its shores. Others have very high level practitioners teaching outside Japan. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, Shindo Yoshin ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu, Mugai ryu, Buko ryu, Araki ryu and Shinto Muso ryu are just a few.


Posted by Lawrence Fisher:

"Sure, there will be this ryu and that popping up, but once they begin to teach, deviate from the intial idea or begin to play, it no longer remains koryu, but rather becomes something new."

______________

This statement is rather confounding. Is it your contention the none of the above mentioned schools are maintaining their core concepts outside Japan? I completely agree that if a Koryu deviates from its purpose or defining characteristics without a proper methodology to do so, that it is in danger of becoming something so separated from its origins that it is no longer true to it roots. However to claim than no Koryu can maintain its unique identity beyond Japan is just an incorrect supposition. One that can be proved wrong by the evidence at hand. As an example I will site just one facet of the tradition that I represent. In the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu all joden licensed instructors must learn to perform several Shinto ceremonies with accompanying norito, all spoken accurately in an archaic and complex dialect of Japanese. These ceremonies must be excruciatingly memorized in their entirety and understood within the cultural context of their creation. These ceremonies constitute an important part of our traditions okuden. Do you have any idea how many budo or Koryu practitioners studying inside Japan right now can perform such a ritual peroperly? Very few I'm here to tell you. Yet this level of knowledge and deep cultural understanding is presently available outside Japan if one is dedicated enough to find it.

Another contention you seem to make that I take umbridge with is the idea that any change within a koryu is necessarily degeneration. This opinion is a common fallacy proposed by those with no deep historical perspective on Koryu or beholden to a particular political mindset . The facts show that successful Koryu constantly changed and evolved so they could meet the challenges met on the field of battle. Only after the warring era ended did many koryu cease to evolve in a way that was true to their roots. Those that stagnated or evolved poorly degenerated into either souless kata-fied dance or quasi-modern budo with just a koryu name. Other Koryu have carefully evolved in a way that is true to their roots. These koryu remain vibrant reflections of the core concepts they were founded on. They are living traditions as opposed to historical skeletons.

No transmission of Koryu can be 100% complete. It is impossible. Therefore something of value must be added in each generation or eventually the art will wither and die. But change for change sake is rife with risk. Change must be judiciously pursued only by someone intimately qualified for such a task. Deliberate technical innovation and evolution sensitive to a traditions soul is the only way koryu can survive into the future as a valuable commodity worthy of preservation.

I suggest you read the interview I did with my teacher, Yukio Takamura that now appears on the Aikido Journal Website. It covers this topic as well as any ever written.

www.aikidojournal.com

Dave Maynard / Menkyo Kaiden
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

Hey Dave,

Nice to see your post here.......and ditto.

Hi there Toby,

Hope all is well in Colorado. Send me a PM. I have some questions about your upcoming seminars in Sweden & Poland. I have also heard a rumour about something up in Blackpool in the fall.

The future of koryu is not a certain thing. There are some ryuha that only have a small handful of members and there are also ryuha with hundreds of members (Just look at Daito ryu, Muso Shinden ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu and Shinto Muso ryu for an example of this.)

For some koryu ryuha, survival depends on the dedication and tenacity of their students. Without dedication in training and study, the student doesn't fully assimilate the entire experience of training in a koryu. He doesn't internalize the mindset and individual characteristics of the ryuha, nor does he internalize the body mechanics of the techniques contained in the kata.

Some ryuha already have shibu (Branch) dojo and some are doing very well and some are not. It all depends on the location and what the interests of the surrounding people are like. Bearing that in mind, the shibucho (Branch Head Instructor) has to make sure that he doesn't take in too many people at one go, otherwise the students' learning curve is affected. The assimilation of most Koryu ryuha works better in small groups. Again, the quality over quantity argument pops up.

The future of koryu lies in the teachers and how they disseminate the information contained in the ryuha. Quite a few koryu have made it quite well abroad, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Shinto Muso ryu, Kashima Shin ryu, Araki ryu, Tenjin Shinyo ryu, Toda Ha Buko ryu and Tatsumi ryu but to name a few have opened shibu dojo in foreign countries.

There are a few koryu in Japan that have gone past their sell-by-date and have lost almost all of their combative meanings and some people's opinons are that they "deserve" to go extinct. I guess it's only natural. Even the dinosaurs went when it was their time.

Regards,

Truly, one who is into Koryu is a rare bird in the martial art world. There are many facets to the training and studying of the koryu, which can be overwhelming to the person just wanting some nice exercise.

In a lot of cases, take Shinto Muso Ryu Jo for instance, the individual in a foreign country generally learns at a slower rate than they would sitting with the head teacher in Japan. Couple this with the fact that ranking is not a "gratification" oriented thing in Koryu (well, it is, just not as quick) and you have a really hard-to-market product in the business world of the McDojo.

-Russ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gunyo Kogusoku

The future of koryu is not a certain thing. There are some ryuha that only have a small handful of members and there are also ryuha with hundreds of members (Just look at Daito ryu, Muso Shinden ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu and Shinto Muso ryu for an example of this.)

For some koryu ryuha, survival depends on the dedication and tenacity of their students. Without dedication in training and study, the student doesn't fully assimilate the entire experience of training in a koryu. He doesn't internalize the mindset and individual characteristics of the ryuha, nor does he internalize the body mechanics of the techniques contained in the kata.

Some ryuha already have shibu (Branch) dojo and some are doing very well and some are not. It all depends on the location and what the interests of the surrounding people are like. Bearing that in mind, the shibucho (Branch Head Instructor) has to make sure that he doesn't take in too many people at one go, otherwise the students' learning curve is affected. The assimilation of most Koryu ryuha works better in small groups. Again, the quality over quantity argument pops up.

The future of koryu lies in the teachers and how they disseminate the information contained in the ryuha. Quite a few koryu have made it quite well abroad, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Shinto Muso ryu, Kashima Shin ryu, Araki ryu, Tenjin Shinyo ryu, Toda Ha Buko ryu and Tatsumi ryu but to name a few have opened shibu dojo in foreign countries.

There are a few koryu in Japan that have gone past their sell-by-date and have lost almost all of their combative meanings and some people's opinons are that they "deserve" to go extinct. I guess it's only natural. Even the dinosaurs went when it was their time.

Regards,

---

Folks:
Don't know how much I can add to the discussion. In Sekiguchi Ryu batto Jutsu US Renmei we use the "KISS" method. Yamada Sensei has a lists of "musts" and we follow them. We're not a huge Renmei, but we work hard to the keep the techniques, kata and traditions in line with Sensei. We seem to grow by several students across the US every year. I suspect that if we weren't a non-profit Renmei, we could train someone who runs a McDojo, we would grow very fast and make a pile of money. But that would hurt to much when I shaved in the morning.

We have a rule that everyone must have a full time job, be retired, or have an income outside the dojo. We tried twice over the last 10 years to allow some smooth talker learn the arts, unfortunately I asked them both to find their sword education elsewhere and they immediately went to "swordmaster status" once they got the old heave/ho. One with only five lessons started teaching basic, intermidate and advance sword. He also put several unauthorized pictures on his website that we had to "encourage" him to remove.

So with experience we've learned the slower we go, the better the art transmission goes. Not to mention my blood pressure seems to stay at a more stable level.
Carl McClafferty

Aloha,

Koryu arts are going to survive as they always have. That is, in small groups of devoted students and responsible teachers. Each koryu has a distinct "flavor" that the student has to learn to "taste." A student of Araki-ryu is going to not only move differently and execute different techniques from someone who trains in Takeuchi-ryu, but will approach individual situations differently. They will adopt a particular outlook on all situations that that specific koryu retains.

This also relates to change within a koryu. As we all know, only someone with menkyo kaiden has the authority to fine-tune kata. This fine-tuning may slowly change over the years to create kata that might be completely new to the curriculum. However, these new or finely-tuned kata will still have the "flavor" of the ryu in them. The person doing the kata will still move like a person who has practiced X-ryu for however many years. You're not going to see a koryu art suddenly incorporating flying-spinning-back-kicks into their teachings just because someone with the authority to do so has given the go-ahead. That would never happen, because it is completely outside the "flavor" of the ryu. The person with menkyo kaiden would never consider it. However, I would not doubt that many koryu have been influenced by other arts that had something to offer that complemented the "flavor." Can you tell I enjoy good food?

In regards to the types of students that will come to learn, well...it is a bit interesting to say the least. Every now and then here in Honolulu we get a couple of new people dropping their heads in to see what all the commotion is about. My teacher gets a few emails from people saying they've always wanted to learn this style or that style and how they're all ready to go. A lot of the time they show up, watch one practice and never come back. Why? I think its because we don't look like the last episode of Dragon Ball-Z they watched before they showed up. Also, I think a lot of people out there think that because koryu is older its going to be more martial in nature. But that's not really true. As everyone has noted, koryu is taught in a different manner. The guys who show up expecting someone barking at the class to do 50 knuckle push-ups and then stand in formation to practice kihon are disappointed when they see us acting relatively nonchalant in comparison with your average JKF dojo. It must drive them nuts when one of us asks a question that turns into an hour of just sitting around talking about the history of the ryu or something similar.

Well, that's just my take on the discussion here.

Aloha,
Joel

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by David Maynard

Hello,

Posted by Lawrence Fisher:

"Personally, I do not see any of the koryu leaving Japan."
_____________

The above statement is incorrect both in fact and perception. Some Koryu have already left Japan and are being successfully taught beyond its shores. Others have very high level practitioners teaching outside Japan. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, Shindo Yoshin ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu, Mugai ryu, Buko ryu, Araki ryu and Shinto Muso ryu are just a few.


Posted by Lawrence Fisher:

"Sure, there will be this ryu and that popping up, but once they begin to teach, deviate from the intial idea or begin to play, it no longer remains koryu, but rather becomes something new."

______________

This statement is rather confounding. Is it your contention the none of the above mentioned schools are maintaining their core concepts outside Japan? I completely agree that if a Koryu deviates from its purpose or defining characteristics without a proper methodology to do so, that it is in danger of becoming something so separated from its origins that it is no longer true to it roots. However to claim than no Koryu can maintain its unique identity beyond Japan is just an incorrect supposition. One that can be proved wrong by the evidence at hand. As an example I will site just one facet of the tradition that I represent. In the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu all joden licensed instructors must learn to perform several Shinto ceremonies with accompanying norito, all spoken accurately in an archaic and complex dialect of Japanese. These ceremonies must be excruciatingly memorized in their entirety and understood within the cultural context of their creation. These ceremonies constitute an important part of our traditions okuden. Do you have any idea how many budo or Koryu practitioners studying inside Japan right now can perform such a ritual peroperly? Very few I'm here to tell you. Yet this level of knowledge and deep cultural understanding is presently available outside Japan if one is dedicated enough to find it.

Another contention you seem to make that I take umbridge with is the idea that any change within a koryu is necessarily degeneration. This opinion is a common fallacy proposed by those with no deep historical perspective on Koryu or beholden to a particular political mindset . The facts show that successful Koryu constantly changed and evolved so they could meet the challenges met on the field of battle. Only after the warring era ended did many koryu cease to evolve in a way that was true to their roots. Those that stagnated or evolved poorly degenerated into either souless kata-fied dance or quasi-modern budo with just a koryu name. Other Koryu have carefully evolved in a way that is true to their roots. These koryu remain vibrant reflections of the core concepts they were founded on. They are living traditions as opposed to historical skeletons.

No transmission of Koryu can be 100% complete. It is impossible. Therefore something of value must be added in each generation or eventually the art will wither and die. But change for change sake is rife with risk. Change must be judiciously pursued only by someone intimately qualified for such a task. Deliberate technical innovation and evolution sensitive to a traditions soul is the only way koryu can survive into the future as a valuable commodity worthy of preservation.

I suggest you read the interview I did with my teacher, Yukio Takamura that now appears on the Aikido Journal Website. It covers this topic as well as any ever written.

www.aikidojournal.com

Dave Maynard / Menkyo Kaiden
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

---

I am new to this board but read the article referred to above and agree with the post too. It is fantastic to know that there is Shindo Yoshin Ryu in the UK. As a Wado student (only a 1st Kyu so i admit my knowledge is very limited) the missing untalked about element of Wado - Shindo Yoshin Ryu- fascinates me as mostly it seems little taught these days. This leaves everything rather unbalanced.

This is a reply to Shihan Mcclafferty about the "smooth talker" that he mentioned about teaching beginner, intermediate, and advanced sword. I believe I know who this instructor is because I have been a student of his for about a year, and some of my fellow students have posted on this forum and discovered his fraud. My name is Tyler Cashman and my email is genkinhito@yahoo.com. I would greatly appreciate hearing from you Shihan. Thank you.
-Tyler Cashman

Well speaking on behalf of the Ryu I represent and practice like crazy partly so that I can hand it on: I would be a lot happier if there were as many people practiced it instead of just write and talk about it. There is the language barrier we have to overcome, work time, "money" etc. But I think we still well in the, 'Go out and get it stage'. "Is there a dojo in my area?" is not enough.

I locked the dojo door the other week after Soke and the designated Soke had gone home. They had around 120 kilometeres to travel. Two of us actually practiced. Then I traveled 120 the opposite way home. Frankly the interest here is pathetic.

Another compaint that I here from teachers now is that the Japanese government shows little or no interest in promoting Japanese culture.