The affectedness of catch in MMA

It seems to me like catch wrestling is an untested system when it comes to MMA. I have seen a few things from catch in MMA but for the most part almost all of the grappling done in MMA comes from judo or BJJ or amateur wrestling. My theory is that catch has been almost dead for a 100 years and most MMA guys don't want to take the chance on it when judo, BJJ and amateur wrestling has been evolving continually.
Why do you think catch isn't used in MMA?
Do you think catch is a viable MA for doing MMA?

CACC has the ability to be used... Ive rolled with a few Catch guys and some of their attacks come from NOWHERE. I think it has potential, but it needs some shaking out... 100 years is alot of cobwebs.

Ive worked in *some* Judo, *some* BJJ, and various wrestling flavors (including Catch but mostly Greco and Freestyle) into my Sambo groundwork and the Catch stuff DOES work when its used right... Its neck cranks are phenominal, and really closes the gap with sport Sambo which doesnt attack the neck.

I dont think Id ever rely on it until some Hooker actually starts nailing some wins... but as a tool in the toolbox, why not?

Hey Don,

I think the main reasons catch as catch can is not seem more in NHB/MMA is because of the shear lack of people practicing catch wrestling... the second and in my opion greatest obstacle for catch wrestlers, the point I was trying to make in the "future of MMA" thread, is that submission grappling tournaments are the entry level events for grapplers and the rules of these events benefit the position oriented tactics of Bjj and judo... so catch wrestlers often get out pointed since we don't hold positions long enough to get points and don't care if our opponent gets a position on us... and then there are those people who for some reason take a strong disliking to catch wrestling and enforce the rules differently for catchwrestlers than they do other fighters... the most maddening is to submit a guy and have the referee decide that since he has never seen the hold that it is illegal...

basically catch as catch can has an up hill battle to fight to get the respect is deserves... which is sad since it has been a part of American heritage for a very long time... how can someone say that it has died out? the "Golden age" of catchwrestling was in the 1920s and 1930s... less than 100 years... catch was taught to the U.S. Marines during WWII... catch was so common amoung soldiers in the WWII European theatre that there are acounts of catch wrestling in German POW camps amoung the soldiers imprisoned there... the last shoot between catchwrestlers was in the 1950's... catch tactics live on in Japans combat wrestling schools, shoot wrestling schools, Japanese Pro wrestling, and NHB schools... In Europe Riley's gym is still going strong... never stopped turning out catch wrestlers or olympic champs... in the States, Tony Chechine has brought catch to the for front of internet debate... Billy Wicks still teaches a group of us here in NC... and high level Bjj guys still come to catch wrestlers for ideas and leg locks... of course they modify them into their methods just as we modify what they show us and put in our tool box... catch isn't dead... just as old style bjj isn't dead... Bjj evolved into modern Bjj... and catch wrestling evolved into a more modern style of submission wrestling... the only thing dead about catch, is the sport aspect due to the fact that no one uses the old catch wrestling rules... Bjj has the corner on the rules thing... no one has the corner on the real fighting thing... NHB is its own thing with its own rules...

catch is used in MMA... Sakuraba uses it as does Sato and Fujita, and any other Japanese wrestler you care to name... The Shamrock brothers use catch just under the name shoot wrestling... the names have changed but the tactics and strategies are the same... John Lewis used the catch and Judo he learned from Gene LeBell to defeat Bjj people in the World Combat Champoinship and then was given a Bjj black belt...

"untested"... what!!!... catch as catch can is very well tested... it is much older than Bjj and some of Bjj comes straight from Catch wrestling... Judo was influenced by Catch wrestling as well... grapplers have always influenced other grapplers...

I think only time will tell... personally I think the future holds many hybrid styles... like I said in another thread... Bjj and catch complement each other very well... when I fight people who can wad me up and force me underneath them I fall back to guard armbar to win... yet I am still trained in catch wrestling and I still teach submission wrestling...

my point is lighten up... A theory that is not based in fact is not a theory... it is an opinion... if you don't like catch then that is cool... I just don't understand how you can say you know Danny Hodge but that you think catch is dead? or untested...

take care, steve

This is an interesting topic and one that I've been thinking about recently. The thing that seems strange to me about catch, is that the argument against its use in grappling tournaments seems contradictory. Now, first off, I'm not bashing catch. I know a couple people who've done some (not experts, by any means), and I respect the art. However, I've heard the complaint that the positional point style of submission grappling tournaments is a disadvantage for CACC wrestlers because they play submissions from all positions and don't work positional hierarchy. However, if this is true, then why should the positional system be a problem. I would think the CACC wrestler would take advantage of other grapplers' dependence on position, and attack from a supposedly disadvantageous position.

The other thing that seems curious to me is that I've also heard people throw out names like Sakuraba and the Shamrocks as using catch in MMA. First, I've never heard THEM say that. Secondly, what techniques are they using that aren't found in Judo or BJJ. Now, as you say, they use "shoot wrestling" or "shoot fighting" which may have roots in catch; that's something I'd like to learn more about.

Hey Steve,
I love catch wrestling, I have been reading newspaper articles on catch wrestling pre 1930's for years. Just ask my instructer...I would ramble about catch endlessly after class until he kicked me out ;)

I just really don't know if catch is all that affective. Thats why I am asking this questions.

I know Ken Shamrock used catch, he was in UWFi and they decided not to make the matches works anymore and taught everyone catch and kickboxing. I wonder where you got your info for the others?

In every city theres a BJJ school and most high schools have a wrestling team. There is not many schools to teach catch and I think this has hurt it's evolution. In the early UFC not to many people knew submissions so Ken Shamrock could be affective with catch.

I think what I meant to say was catch is untested in MMA in recent years and I need to see more than one guy (Ken Shamrock) do it to see if it's affective.

Hey Micheal,

Most catch wrestlers try submissions from inferior positions or escape to gain a more dominant relationship... sometimes they get the submission and sometimes they don't... the point is that the catch wrestler is working to get a submission when very often his opponent works to get points and then stalls until time runs out... most catch wrestlers see it unfair that they are trying to actually submit their opponent and getting no points for attempt or for aggression, but their opponent gets points for a position that often he didn't take but was put into as a bait... and yes, the use of trying to get position is used as a bait in catch wrestling... the thing is there are many schools out there claiming to teach catch when they have very little understanding of the basic principles...

okay, the Japanese angle... the story goes... after WWII many of the old catch wrestlers were either dead, in the carnivals, or professional wrestlers... a man named Karl Gotch wanted to learn the real combative techniques of catch wrestling so he went around learning techniques from many sources... when he was good enough to teach he found the American people more interested in Judo than wrestling and felt that what he had to offer would be over looked in the U.S. but would be accepted in Japan were they continued the tradition of jiu jitsu tournaments... his theory proved correct and he began teaching catch wrestling in Japan... his greatest student was named Fujiwara and together they started a pro wrestling league in Japan and many off shoot combat oriented groups that compete at jiu jitsu tournaments... when Ken Shamrock went to Japan it was to be a professional wrestler... he learned is submissions and fighting skills through these associations... then he came back to the U.S. and started teaching shoot wrestling which was the name of the combat oriented art in Japan... because in catch history the term "shoot" meant real fight... shoot wrestling, is real fight wrestling... Sakaraba was also trained in the gyms of the pro wrestlers linked to Fujiwara and Karl Gotch... when Bjj came to the U.S. and the American people began to embrase submission grappling again, some grapplers began looking for alternatives to Bjj and they found the alternative in catchwrestling, shoot wrestling, etc...

take care, steve

Hey Don,

catch wrestling is the underdog... I call what I teach submission wrestling because of the baggage that comes with catch as catch can...

Sakaraba and Sato are also linked to UWF...

until you see catch wrestling used effectively I can't tell you how effective it is... Sakaraba has used it very well against the Gracies... in local tournaments such as Gokor's Knoxville tournament Chris Rogers has used Catch very well against his opponents to win the absolute... wrestling and Jiu-jitsu are different approaches to grappling... this debate has been going on since atleast 1905... check out www.ejmas.com then go to the "Journal of Combative Sport" and check out the article "American Wrestling vs. Jujitsu: Leonard and Higashi"...

take care, steve

I think it depends on the practitioners them selfs. No different then judo, bjj, any stand up, wrestleing. They all have a place but it depends on the practitoner to use it.



Jason Bryant

Hey Jason,

I completely agree... the only real differenced between Jiu jitsu based and wrestling based ground technique is that jiu jitsu people tend to hold a position a little bit longer... it truely comes down to the person and their experience...

take care,steve

Here we are, in the west, with such wrestling traditions as CACC, Cornish Wrestling, Submission Wrestling, and the like.

Our sports faded just before the GIs discovered Judo. As we know, many ideas of Judo (such as martial arts to be practiced as a sport with a point system) evolved into BJJ which is now quite popular in the USA, though it "looks" different as people wear gis (clean, plain ones in Judo, fun gaudy ones in BJJ) instead of singlets, but even BJJ guys practice gi-less sometimes.

By the way, there's a Three Stooges episode where Curly gets in a ring and must wrestle someone. The guy throws an ankle-lock on Curly as part of the match.

Fascinating that we had a fight-wrestling style in the USA back then that was popular enough that Three Stooges fans would know what it is and that now we're rediscovering something that was once home-grown and now we see it has having come from Japan->USA and/or Japan->Brazil->USA.

People think that these skills came from one place or another but I see this discussion as being much like arguing over who invented the wheel. I would venture to claim that the same problems brought about the same solutions in several places.

Go figure.

Speculation: I wonder if BJJ emphasizes positional dominance due to it's inherent combative nature, i.e. striking and escaping? BJJ in it's purest non-competition form is concerned with a combat solution as quickly as possible. That solution could be escape, in which positional dominance is highly important (it is very difficult to escape an attacker from an inferior position). The solution could also be raining down punches on the other guy; to do this effectively, one must have positional dominance.

Interesting discussion.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

I believe Erik Paulson is a strong proponent of catch, and that it is one of the major sources of his game (combat submission wrestling). Erik has had great success as a shoot wrestler and NHB fighter...

Ray W.