Saigo-ha Daito-ryu/ John J. Williams (Canada)
 

Hi all,

I'm posting this subject here in hopes of giving John J. Williams and his son Steve Williams a fair shake. They are apparently unhappy with the unprofessional and impolite discussion we had about their webpages over at e-budo.com, so being fairminded and against "censorship", I'd like to make sure that they can get an opportunity to discuss the subject elsewhere. As such, I won't be contributing further to the thread here, and would ask that those involved in the discussion at e-budo do the same.

Everything you need to know about this line of Saigo-ha Daito-ryu and John/Steve Williams from Canada can be found at the following links:

Main webpages:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1235/

Their "Julian College Arts & Sciences", martial art instructor certification:
http://juliancollege.com/martial.html

Recent writings on Daito-ryu succession and their problems on e-budo:
http://juliancollege.com/legitimate.html

Have direct experience with them, or seen a video? Post your opinions here. Looked through the above pages and formed an opinion? Post them here. All contributions welcome, for or against.

Thanks for your attention,

Nathan Scott

First Impression...
 

They REALLY need to hire a decent web designer! :) Once I get through more of that mess of a website, I will be happy to provide more input, but for John and Steven Williams, if you read this, please feel free to discuss these questions if you like. As long as you keep it civil (and that goes for everyone I might add), I will be happy to allow a spirited debate on this subject.

Ah a bit of baffling / bad budo here on budo seek!

I'll have to read through the sites first though.

Hmm.....it would be interesting to take a look at this link:

http://www.daito-ryu.org/history.html



-R

I went through the website posted Nathan.

It all sounds a bit of goobadigoob to me.

I then looked at Dr Williams' homepage...

I think the nutcakes are still out there. A very pretentious site indeed.

Beyond legitimacy...
 

I don't have the time to go through all that myself, and there sure are many persons more qualified to do this than I. So, I cannot comment on the matter itself.

But my personal opinion is that, if you're making a case for legitimacy, there would be a few things you might want to do. The first would be to either learn to spell or use a spell checker. This might be a pet peeve of mine, but writing words such as "creditability", "rebuttle", "LEGITEMACY", "appauled" (and so many others) shows a lack of care and professionalism. It makes the text harder to read, and certainly detracts from the subject matter itself (at least for me).

The second thing I'd suggest is to stay clear of personal attacks and petty insults. If you want to make a case for legitimacy and respond to attacks from other people, you'll usually be taken more seriously (and certainly garner more respect) than if you just fling back insults at them. I know I certainly am appalled to see a high ranking official from a martial art sink down to calling other people "pathetic", "motivated by greed", "pretenders", "childish", "morons", "fools", "deranged" and "demented". It's nice that it is limited to a few places in the text, but the simple fact that they are there is enough to raise my hackles.

If you want to set yourself up as the sole authority for a style and claim to rise above petty squabbles and childish debates, it would help if you don't just turn around and start insulting those that don't agree with you in a space where they can't respond.

To me, whether they are legitimate or not doesn't matter. If you can't take criticism (valid or not) without flinging insults, if you claim to be mature and then call your detractors names, it doesn't matter how authentic or how old your style is. You just don't embody respect, and I wouldn't want to learn from someone like that. Of course, that applies to many people, even if they practice the same style I do.

Not that I don't care about legimacy and lineage, obviously, but were I considering this school and style for anything, the tone of the text itself would get to me way before any question of lineage. It's not respectful or professional, and this comes from the very head of the style. I wouldn't expect Ikeda soke to berate those that don't agree with his lineage within MJER.

All that, and really, I have nothing to say about the style itself or its claim to legitimacy :). I just think that a proper martial arts school goes beyond that, and I guess I wouldn't be confident about joining that one. Unfortunately, that probably doesn't contribute much to the subject at hand, but hey. I had stuff to say :).

---
Sebastien L.

I've always questioned the Chinese teachers Mr. Williams claims as his links to Saigo. All he's ever provided concerning these men have been a few pictures on his webpage that clearly have been altered on a computer.

It would be nice to see some information that could substantiate the claim that he studied under someone who had studied under Saigo. Maybe a picture of him training with his teacher, or of one of them training with Saigo, or of his teacher's Menkyo, or his...there must be something. If not, we really wouldn't be wrong to question, would we? Merely teaching an extended curriculum and being knowledgeable doesn't mean one is telling the truth.

On the bright side, at least Williams had the wisdom to repudiate Rod Sacharnoski when it became evident Sacharnoski had been well-caught in several lies. Perhaps there is hope?

On the not-so-bright side, Mr. Williams is now claiming to be the only legit school of D.R. out there, and is claiming to be the victim of a conspiracy effort against his lineage led by Aiki News editor & owner Stanley Pranin. Williams is heroically exposing the whole conspiracy by selling (pricey) D.R. tapes of his own. From William's webpage:

"Righting a wrong !!
"Since a major aikido magazine editor has initiated a campaign to discredit the Saigo-Ha branch of Daito-Ryu and many western Daito-Ryu masters in an effort to " sell " the videotapes of one well-known Japanese Daito-Ryu teacher who refused to obey the directives of his late teacher and support the chosen successor of the Sokaku line of Daito-Ryu, opting instead, to appoint himself as headmaster, as has done about 25 other " loyal " students from Japan, it was decided by Dr. Williams to call their bluff once and for all !
"Dr. Williams, a man who has confronted adversity throughout his life, has decided to offer for the very first time, on videotape, the complete souden or core techniques of Daito-Ryu as passed down through Tanomo Saigo to his successors, to demonstrate that his line, and his line alone, teaches the complete art in pure form .
"Although Dr. Williams has been contacted by several Daito-Ryu teachers who asked him to refrain from offering these highly technical, often secret, techniques to the general public, it was felt that it must be done in order to seperate the true Daito-ryu experts from the frauds and countless unqualified teachers who have come-out of the woodwork and are supported by several well-known Aiki magazines as though they are all legitmate .
"Initially, The Saigo Ha branch was trying to offer this art of Daito-Ryu through this internet home page in a very cooperative and family oriented format, but, Saigo Ha has recently been subjected to a negative media campaign designed to discredit it in order to sell materials such as instructional videotapes from other Daito-Ryu groups from Japan .
"The irony is that, although Saigo Ha is the only true mainline Daito-Ryu art practiced today because Shiro Saigo was adopted by Tanomo Saigo and taught the complete core art before the art was turned-over to his bodyguard Sokaku Takeda who had only 8 years training under him, Few people realize that if not for Uyeshiba who founded Aikido, few would even know about Daito-Ryu .
"And that PURE DAITO-RYU exists only through the Shiro-Saigo line since the Soaku line has been modified greatly due to the training that Sokaku Takeda had before he joined Tanomo Saigo and agreed to take-over the position of headmaster .
"When one examines the technical skill on these tapes. they will see that few so-call Daito-Ryu experts who are so quick to denounce Saigo Ha, or Dr. Williams, yet are portreyed through the media as the only authentic or legitimate experts , know these techniques as they should be taught, or are worhy to label themselves as a Daito-Ryu expert.
"Until one goes over the material on these tapes, compares them to what the other supposed Daito-Ryu experts teach under that name, one cannot honestly attack the creditability of Saigo Ha or Dr. Williams with a straight face . It is now the time of decision for all doubters of Saigo Ha to either step forward and prove their worthyness to call what they teach Daito-Ryu, or step down and acknowledge that what is on these apes is the real thing and theirs is not !!! ..
"It must be pointed-out that there are many good Daito-Ryu teachers out there who are loyal to the system and a credit to the memory of the hundreds of Daito-Ryu headmasters over the 1200 years of it's development, and this homepage will still offer them the same respect they rightfully deserve, but, on the other-hand, a small number of highly profiled Daito-Ryu teachers are engaged in a commercial effort to capitalize on the recent publicity of Daito-Ryu by selling tapes through a well orchestrated media blitz geared to sell them as being legitimate while the others as being suspect of frauds.( it is toward these people that this action was initiated )"

And if you buy that...


Take Care,

M.C. Busman

....and here is the history of the unknown (to all but Williams) teachers who Williams tells us passed the art from Saigo to him. From William's website:

"YAMASHITA HOUEI
"1889-1972
"Soke Yamashita, Houei , 1889-1972, student of Saigo Shiro, founded the Daito-Ryu Shuukikan in 1968 after training under many great masters. He was an expert in weapons, horsemanship, the sword and Saigo-Ha Aiki Budo ( Yamashita was a military man for part of his life and travelled throughout Asia where he studied different arts and taught Saigo-Ha Aiki Budo and it is reported he was involved with police work, either as an instructor or an officer for many years .)
"Not much is known about Yamashita Houei in his younger years, but, he was reported to have travelled throughout Japan, China, Korea and parts of Mancheria prior WWII. where he made many contacts that would serve him during the war. ( it is on one of these trips that he is said to have met Sigung Lin Po, who would study Daito-Ryu under him on several occasions up until 1948 and he would in-turn teach him Chinese Kempo & pressure point Atemi wasa )
"He became, like most Daito-ryu leaders, a Shinto priest who ran a temple. He spent the later part of his life teaching a very small group of students the arts he learned in his youth.

"Soke Sogawa Kazuoichi
"Soke Sogawa Kazuoichi, is the current head of the Saigo-Ha Shukikan and main student and official successor of the of Yamashita Hoori Daito-Ryu system . His system was accepted as a branch of Daito-Ryu by the late Soke Tokimuni Takeda in 1984 after many years of dis-association and friction between the two camps over the actions of Shiro Saigo
SHUUKIKAN DAITO-RYU is noted for it's great mastery of weapons and specialization in striking techniques ( atemi wasa ) based on pressure-points and acupuncture.
"And those who witness the techniques of Sogawa Sensei say it is almost identitical to mainline Daito-Ryu aiki Jujutsu.
* It is highly likely that Yamashita Hoorii was influenced by his student Lin Lin Po who was an expert in both Chinese acupuncture and pressure-point techniques and probably combined the traditional Daito-Ryu atemi wasa with Chinese pressure point techniques to arrive at the current stage..
There is some friction between followers of today's mainline Daito-Ryu and Sogawa Soke, but it is most likely just politics and misunderstanding on their part. either-way ! There is no reason to expect that Shuukikan Daito-Ryu is any less legitimate than any other branch or that it is nt true Daito-Ryu.


"SIGUNG LIN PO
"Sigung Po ,Lin, 1902-1951, from China, student of Yamashita and several other Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu instructors, founded Po Mu Gow Chinese version of Saigo-Ha in 1948, where he included Kung Fu techniques to Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu syllabus .
"Sigung Po was a Chinese Kung Fu master who studied Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu for many years in Japan before WWII . ( he was a very wealthy merchant and certified acupuncturist and herbalist )
"He had very extensive training in Northern Shaolin kung fu systems beside his much favored Saigo-Ha Aiki-Jujutsu ( * He was reportedly married to a Japanese lady who was related to one of Matsuda Tayasaku's cousins , which is probably one reason why he was allowed to study mainline Daito-Ryu )
And although, his loyalty was to Yamashita Houei who was not part of the Sokaku-line Daito-Ryu practitioners of the day, he nevertheless reportedly took private lessons from anyone in mainline Daito-Ryu willing to teach him .
The fact that his current system includes well over 3000 different techniques demonstrates he must have had a great exposure to the two lines of Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu .
"Like many Saigo-Ha Aiki Budo masters before him, Master Po was a warrior who frequently engaged in contests to perfect his fighting skills ! ( It is reported that he made a small fortune by engaging in inter-kwoon (in Hong Kong) competitions where he was often hired to pose as a member of one school or another to demonstrate that the school had superiority over others ) It is said that he had killed over 10 men in battle ( but, this was most likely military battles, not indevidual duels to the death, since he served under both Mao Tsi Tung, and then Chang Kai Shek in WWII, )
"He travelled throughout China as a military instructor under Mao Tse Tung before the war and is reported to have made many trips to Japan during peacetime as an attache for the Chinese war department ( which is likely another reason why he was allowed to study Saigo-Ha under another former military expert -Yamashita Hoorii. )
"(it is even rumored he was possibly a spy for Japan prior to the start of WWII )

"SIGUNG SHEN, POK
"Sigung Shen, Pok, 1921- 1983, ( it is believed he died in the early 83 in Formosa ) originally from mainland China, first-cousin and student of Sigung Po, he founded his own version of Takeda- Ryu / Daito-Ryu which he called Shen Mu Gow, (based on Northern Shaolin Kung fun and Saigo ha Aiki Jujutsu), this was only after many years of study under Sigung Po and other Japanese Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu teachers.
"But, unlike Sigung Po , Shen was a scientist and anti-communist who fled mainline China and relocated to Formosa before moving to the U.S.A in the late 50's( where he worked as a chemist with the an American chemical company.)
"The biggest change made to Daito-Ryu by Sigung Shen was the introduction of centrifugal force kicking techniques from Northern Shaolin Kung Fu and a structured grading syllabus based on a combination of the mudansha/yudansha and traditional menkyo systems..
"Sigung Shen explained to his disciple Dr.John J.Williams ,( a Canadian who worked with him in the U.S.A.) that although his system was 90% Saigo-Ha Aiki Budo ( Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu ) he would be best served not to adverise it as such because the Japanese had disassociated themselves from Soke Yamashita and would never accept anyone into their group who had lineage going back to Shiro Saigo because in their eyes he was a traitor and had committed a very disrespectful act toward grandmaster Tanomo Saigo.
Sigung Shen told Dr.Williams that he met Yamashita Houei prior to WWII, And on three of four occasions in the late 40's, and that Yamashita was a priest at that time or studying for priesthood. ( and recalled / remembered teaching Lin Po years before.)
"Another reason for not advertising it as Takeda-Ryu or Daito-Ryu was that both Sigung Po and Sigung She were both pure Chinese, and it was simply not accepted within mainline Daito-Ryu circles to show the core of this art to any non-japanese until a few years ago..( which is still reported to be a practiced fact within some of the Daito-Ryu schools in Japan even today ! ) *But it is apparent that Yamashita Hoori did not share this view !
Sigung Shen placed a tattoo on Dr.Williams' rear shoulder in 1970 that he said would have meaning to those in traditional Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu, and it was found-out years-later, that this was the mon of the Minamoto clan. ( actually one of the fiefs to the Aizu court )
"He was warned by Sigung Shen about the problems suffered by Sogawa Shihan for his use of the words Daito-Ryu or Takeda Ryu in public circles and that it might be best to call it something else. ( Sigung just referred to it as Shen Mu Gow )
"This is why Dr.Williams, although everyone who saw his system recognised it as looking very similar to Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu, merely called it either Tai-Jitsu, Kindai-Ha Aiki Jujutsu, Kindai-Ryu jujitsu or when he first registered it with the World Headfounders /Headfamilies Council, simply called it Nihon Kindai-Ha Shinto-Ryu AikiBudo since he was slowly introducing his own brand of Shintoism to it..
"But, those times have changed and Daito-Ryu is now more open to non-Japanese, making it appropriate to give it the name of Saigo-Ha Takeda-Ryu / Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujutsu / Aiki - Budo !
"It was explained by Sigung Shen that although he had trained extensively in Japan under various Daito-Ryu teachers in the early 50's there was anomosity between anyone associated with Yamashita Hoori, so he kept his previous training secret to prevent being expelled ! ( one of the teachers he claimed to have briefly trained under was Horokawa Sensei whose son went-on to found Kodokai, actually, Sigung never said which Horokawa-sensei he trained under, the father or son, merely that he was called Horokawa Sensei ) and that he ( Horokawa - Sensei ) thought that Yamashita Hoori was involved with policework or possibly police training. ( which is where that rumor originated )
"Sigung Shen explained that traditional Daito-Ryu has close to 3000 techniques but that they are not categorized or organized into teaching blocks or units ! Rather, they are taught randomely (often mixing basic techniques with advanced ones)
"So, he restructured them based on the Kodokan Judo grading syllabus, of mudansha & yudansha, grouped with the shoden, chuden, okuden, hiden or Kaiden certification system. ( which is how Dr.Williams teaches the techniques today )
"It was recently explained by a senior Daito-Ryu master , after witnessing a demonstration by Dr.Williams, that the system resembles that taught by Katsuyuki Kondo-Shihan in Tokyo today more than other versions ! ( And a number of top Daito-Ryu masters agree that most of the techniques look exactly like those found in Daito-Ryu )
"In an article published in 1988 and 1992, Shihan Kondo reportedly denounces the Saigo-Ha Daito-Ryu of Shiro Saigo and Yamashita, saying it is not true Daito-Ryu, (although, in 1984, Tokimune-Soke visited the dojo of Sogawa-Shihan, the successor to Yamashiuta Shihan, to accept them back into Daito-Ryu - strange that the head of mainline Daito-Ryu found it professionally proper to met and accept Sogawa Shihan, where'as some of his senior students are not willing to do the same.)
"This suggest possible fragmentation of Daito-Ryu in Japan and possibly a number of power-struggles for control within the heirarchi who were under the late Takeda Tokimune-Soke .
"In an article by Stanly Pranin & Katsuyuko Kondo in Aiki News #92, one of the things they say disproves the claims of Sogawa-Sensei about the Yamashitta Houei lineage is that in 1978, Sogawa-Sensei adverised that he was teaching a version of "AIKI KEMPO" which is of chinese origins, yet, I doubt either man even took the time to visit with Sogawa Sensei and see him in action, let alone demonstrate a little professionalism
"However, since Sigung Shen NEVER met or corresponded with Sogawa Sensei, and his claims are exactly the same as Sogawa Sensei in regards to Yamashita Houei having learned Chinese Atemi wasa / kempo from Sigung Pok, it is next to impossible to imagine that two complete strangers with no contact what-so-ever between them could come-up with the very same story complete with dates, names, and most important , very similaqr techniques.
"Even today, some 75 years after the death of Shiro Saigo, some hard-line traditionalist within Daito-Ryu still harbour deep resentment over his decision to join the efforts of Jigoro Kano in establishing Kodokan Judo instead of assuming the post of headmaster of Daito-Ryu and some even refuse to acknowlege that Tanomo Saigo taught him the art of Takeda-Ryu as his own adopted son, or taught others such as Yamashita Houeii, but you can't erase history, and the facts are straight-forward and true,
Shiro Saigo did master Takeda-Ryu and taught others, including Yamashita Hourii his art which has survived till this day as Saigo-Ha AikiBudo * it would be totally foolish for anyone to assume a man of the stature of Shiro Saigo would suddenly stop training in the arts he loved and never teach anyone again ! ( He was one of the greatest fighters the Kodokan ever saw, and his success was due to his mastery of Daito-Ryu under Tanomo Saigo )
Sigung Shen was a pacifist who did not believe in fighting. (whereas his successor, Dr.John .J. Williams was a fighter who did not believe in pacivism ) He stressed that Daito-Ryu should only be used for self defence when everything else failed. But, on at least one occasion he proved his fighting ability when he was mugged in Boston and reportedly send his two attackers to the hospital with broken arms & legs .( He rarely talked about this incident because he felt it was wrong to purposely injure anyone , but his abilities were very evident whenever he applied a technique in training or demonstrated his ability to escape from holds applied by strangers as part of his demonstrations . )
"* Dr.Williams remembers the training under him as severe and often very painful., and the standard dojo rule was simple : One whack with a shinaii or bokken was the best and fastest way to correct mistakes in technique and poor etiquette. "

So, where is there any documentation of Lin Po and Shen Pok outside of John Williams himself? Are there pictures, menkyo, documents, etc? Anything which might show these men existed at all, and more specifically, taught Williams this art? It is reasonable to expect proof in matters like these.


Happiness to Y'all,

M.C. Busman
mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net

I know nothing of this twisted tale, and have no part in any long-standing debate. I have been a fan of the "Bad Budo" and "Baffing Budo" forums on E-Budo and take pleasure and amusement from seeing the feeble attempts at website design and copy writing that goes so well with the fakes and frauds. People who have no credible martial arts training often make lousy websites too.

I've just read through the two extracts posted by Mr Busman and I am struck by the contrast in styles. The first is an inarticulate rant while the second is a detailed account filled with what appears to be authentic detailed "history". As an outside observer (no, I mean REALLY outside. I have no knowledge of this art), I am impressed by these lineage notes. If others know better then I shall be keen to read further, but I'll be even more impressed by the author if the claims are proved bogus. The sophisticated weaving of fact with (according to some) fiction is subtle and feels "real". I haven't seen a faker do it so well before. Is this because there is more at stake in this case?

There are Painters who can copy the style of a Dutch Master and create a "fake" that will fool experts. When the prize could be worth millions, then you better get your details right. Is there really so much money to be made her?

David Noble wrote: "Is there really so much money to be made her[e]?"


To some people, position is more important than money. I don't know if that is the case here. There are also people who will stick to a lie no matter how much proof is presented. They are happy to pretend (leaders, or happy to be ignorant (followers), I suppose.

Up until recently, there were pictures of the men Williams refers to as Lin Po and Shen Pok on that website. I say pictures, because they were scanned photos which had obviously been doctored--and not very well! I did print them out for my file. I just can't see anyone studying with someone for a prolonged period of time at a high level and not having something to show for it--even something incidental, like receipts, letters, cards, etc. let alone certs (menkyo) & a few decent photos. The ONLY source in D.R. for Sen Pok & Lin Po is Williams. I need something more.


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman