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there are many Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu web sites out there, I would like to know if all Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu? and is it all one Group with one President or is there more then one school of Gracies Jiu-Jitsu with different rules and techniques? if so how many Group is located in the UK? and which school or group do u think is the best?
I hope to get an answer soon?
Ali
Here is a good start:Quote:
Originally Posted by IFKQ80
http://www.bjj.org
All Brazilian jiu-jitsu can be traced to Helio and/or Carlos Gracie Sr. Some family dispute on who was the original creator but Helio and Carlos taught out of the same academy for many years. The family has split into many different organizations and some of their students have also split off in recent years. Even so all lines will eventually trace back to Helio or Carlos Sr.
To examine some photographs of Helio Gracie getting his butt shellacked by Masahiko Kimura, visit: http://www.onzuka.com/graciepix.html
Scroll down half way to see a good photograph of Helio Gracie being thrown on his butt by Masahiko Kimura using Osoto-gari.
Then a great picture of Helio Gracie pinned under Masahiko Kimura with Mr. Gracie getting his arm cranked with an Ude-Garami (or what the BJJ people call a 'Kimura').
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John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.
Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu
hehe...well, I wouldn't get too biased over that fight. Though Kimura sensei was claimed the victor, it's been in dispute for some time. If memory serves, the match was some four hours...and Helio continued fighting for most of it with a broken elbow. The end of the fight occured when Kimura took Helio in a headlock...so hard that Helio began bleeding from the ear. The match was called moments later..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Bell
Dispute? I've been a shimpan (referree) for two shiais (Judo touraments) and from those clear black and white photographs, Mr. Helio Gracie had lost with being thrown with Osoto-Gari, then humiliated by being pinned like a corpse in a beautiful Ude-Garami (which the BJJ people seemed to have renamed a 'Kimura'???). HA! No dispute whatsoever - Gracie Lost!
A four hour Judo match? Never heard of such a thing. What were they doing, going in rounds?
I did get a kick out of those photographs though. :devil:
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John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.
*chuckle* You need to watch the fight clips...it's not as cut and dry. And er...it wasn't shiai point rules. This was a fight, not a tourny match or even a "judo match". It was not judo rules laid out by the Kodokan. It was based on submission, which never occured..
In National Judo competition, nobody submits. You are either involuntarily thrown for the full point, or choked out for the full point, or pinned for the requisite time, or arm-barred until either your arm breaks or the shimpan (ref) breaks the match and awards the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Bell
The higher up the ranks you go and the bigger the tournaments you compete, the rougher Judo gets. Ever see those mashed noses and cauliflower ears on those Japanese Judo players?
Elite Judo is as rough as professional football or rugby. Lots of broken collar bones, collapsed lungs, and concussions at the Nationals in Chicago or Scottsdale Arizona (I spent two days in hospital with a minor concussion). My injuries prevent me from competing or else I wouldn't mind going to a tournament or two. (plus I'm fed up with Judo politics).
The Marqui de Queensbury rules only apply to the local Judo tournaments for the kyu players. After 2nd dan, things get rough. Nothing new under the sun with Brazilian Ju-jitsu.
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John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.
Right okay...but it was not a Judo competition...I said that. Here is the story:
Ultimate Fight in Brazil - 1951
Kimura became the All Japan Open Weight Judo Champion at age 20. He maintained this title for 13 years without suffering a single defeat during this period. In 1950 he left judo to become a professional Judoka and wrestler. In July 1951 Kimura and two other fellow Japanese Judoka were asked to compete in Brazil. Kimura at age 34 was accompanied by a 240 pound (110kg) college champion Yamaguchi (6th degree black belt at the time) and Kado (5th degree black belt). It was to be a Judo/Jiu-jitsu fight.
Kado accepted a challenge from Helio Gracie -- Brazilian champion for 20 years. The loser was determined by tapping out due to a choke or armbar, or by being knocked out of commission. Ippon (clean powerful throws) or osaekomi (pinning) would have no effect on the results of competition. During Kado's fight he threw Gracie several times. Gracie, who was in excellent condition, demonstrated ukemi, braking the throws with little injury. After 10 minutes of frustration, Kado decided to apply a choke. However, the masterful Gracie applied his own choke rendering Kado unconscious. With Kado's passing-out, Gracie was declared the winner and became a national hero of Brazil!
Weeks later, Gracie challenged the remaining two team members, either Yamaguchi or Kimura, to a match. Yamaguchi refused for fear of injury, however Kimura accepted the challenge. There were 20,000 spectators present. A coffin was brought in by Gracie's followers. Presumably, Kimura was to be killed by Gracie. On the day of the match, the President and Vice President of Brazil attended at ringside.
During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoi-nage (one arm shoulder throw), osoto-gari (major outer reap), and harai-goshi (sweeping hip/loin). He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame (modified upper four corner hold), kesa-gatame (scarf hold), sankaku-gatame (triangle hold). Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osoto-gari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (arm bar) (chicken-wing arm lock). The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow.
Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his corner "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win.
...and my mistake. The match lasted 2 hours, 10 minutes.
Why the he** are you guys hijacking this thread? Jack are you one of those Anti-BJJ guys too? Trying to get a little jab in? Let me guess, you are a judo black belt, you think it's all the same thing, but you have never rolled with a BJJ black belt? Am I right?
Gee that sounds real cool, such a shame it's not true. Nobody submits? I have seen countless tapes of National and International matches with people tapping like drummers. Sure there are stubborn folks that get choked out or hurt but they are far from the norm.Quote:
In National Judo competition, nobody submits. You are either involuntarily thrown for the full point, or choked out for the full point, or pinned for the requisite time, or arm-barred until either your arm breaks or the shimpan (ref) breaks the match and awards the point.
Jay, the match with Kimura was 13 minutes. It was ten minute rounds, and Carlos threw in the towel in the second round. Get ahold of tape 4 from the Gracie Advanced series Rorion put out and it is an interview with Helio. He describes the match. The four hour fight was a vale tudo match against a former student named Santana.
Interesting article. Thanks! I knew the arm bar was an ude-garami from the photograph. Also, just FYI, the Judo choke: Sankaku Juji-Jime, is appropriately named Naked Hell Strangle.
I thought a four hour match was a bit long.
Thanks again for this info.
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John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Bell
Hi Cliff,
No, I am not a BJJ hater. I am a 'let's prostitute the martial arts' hater.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has some good street fighting technique, but bad scholarship and publicity. Again, nothing new under the sun with BJJ defeating all martial artists marketing strategy: Aaron Banks did it all before and better with his 1968 mixed martial arts matches in Madison Square Garden.
Also, tapping out at major Judo championships has always been frowned upon. Like shouting out 'Miaita' (I give up), also frowned upon, although it is done. Depends on how competitive minded is your dojo.
And yes, I have a hard won Nidan (2nd dan) black belt in Judo which I am very proud. I hang my Nidan certificate above my honorable discharge and college degree at work. And I feel that Dr. Jigoro Kano should be awarded a posthumous Nobel Prize for developing Judo.
I don't hate Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I just hate what's being done with it.
Thanks!
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John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.
Hi Jack,
I think you're missing an important point here: BJJ is not Judo. They are similar and quite complimentary (I train and love both) but they have different cultures and different rules. I still don't understand what you wrote about the referee stopping matches instead of a fighter tapping out in Judo - I've tapped several guys in matches using something we call a "clock choke" in BJJ*.
In any event, the rules for competition are different, though the techniques are often (not always) similar enough that you can indulge in similar stuff in practice, especially if you remove the time limit for groundfighting.
The main difference between BJJ and Judo competition is that in BJJ you get points for positioning and you otherwise win only by submission, which to me is a more complete defeat for the poor looser. In Judo there is a judge (or three, as it were) who will disrupt the flow of the match and stand you up again. BJJ does not interrupt the same way.
Judo judge will also give you points for how well you do a technique, as opposed to working your way into position. In BJJ a good throw is just the start of a good match, whereas in Judo it is the end.
Also, there are many differences in training methods between traditional Judo and BJJ. To be honest, however, the training seems to vary significantly between Judo clubs, too. My main dojo spends about 75% of our time groundfighting, just because that's what we enjoy and our sensei "rolls" with it (forgive the pun, please).
I went to one in Germany while I was living there and we did 1/2 indoor soccer (for longer than an hour on some days!) and the rest was ONLY throwing. As a lowly green belt, I choked out their best black-belted throwers, got them in leglocks (safely, of course), and submitted them frequently with gooseneck wrist submissions from guard, which are illegal in Judo but very convenient nonetheless. With throwing, however, I got schooled (and learned many new ways to cuss in German).
BJJ takes the groundfighting of Judo and expands it briliantly. I would argue that is a little more practical as nobody will stop you on the street and stands you back up again like in a nice polite (and frequently very rough, as you mentioned) Judo match. At least, if they do so, it will be to break up a fight. As for practicality, there is a lot to be said for being able to finish off your opponent. Else you find yourself mounted or in guard wondering what else to do.
That being said, when I was a bouncer, most of my throw-outs ended with a takedown on the cement. Thank you Judo. But others ended with a rear-naked choke. Thank you BJJ and Submission Wrestling.
You would be well served doing both, as I have been. Might have a great time, as well, as I have.
If I were you I would just think of these two briliant sports as kinds of biking - there are road bikers and mountain bikers. The sports are similar but different. Many prefer one over the other and I am sure there are many arguements over which is better, though I doubt anyone bothers to decide upon an objective set of criteria defining "good" and "better."
Anyway, I'd urge you to enjoy both.
And as for a Nobel prize for Kano, well, that may be a bit much but maybe someday. I certainly have a lot of respect for the guy who managed to make a grappling martial art into a world-wide and Olympic sport. That's incredible. The same may happen for BJJ, though, as Helio, Carlos, Rickson, and many, many others, have put a tremendous amount of care into developing this magnificent sport. Give it time. Maybe give it a try, too?
-E
*From side control or half-guard (I forget the names in Japanese and let's assume we're on the guy's right side, so his head is on your left), you place your arm under his head and reach up to take your own collar, forming a loop around his neck. Then, free your leg (surprisingly easy once you have that choke started) and work your way around clockwise, blocking him from further rotating around
Ali,
there are many Brazilian jiu jitsu groups... the Gracie family is the best known and it is divided up between the family members... Gracie Jiu jitsu is a trade name for a specific curriculum developed by Rorion Gracie and supported by Helio and Royce... the Carlson Gracie lineage teaches a different curriculum though based on the same techniques... Rickson has his own association... the Machado Brothers, who are related to the Gracies, also teach their own curriculum... Saolo Riberiero has his association... There is Alliance Bjj founded by "Jacare" of Atlanta Georgia who was a student of Hals Gracie... there truely are countless groups out there... and even some video trained frauds... this is not to mention the smaller independant Jiu jitsu folks from Brazil that were trained either by the Gracies or by the numerous Japanese who lived in Brazil and taught either jiu jitsu or Judo... it is important to note that there was a huge Japanese imagration to Brazil and that more than one Japanese fighter taught and faught in Brazil... then you have the Vale Tudo folks who have a connection to Bjj but really teach a different art... also it should be pointed out that Judo is huge in Brazil, so there are many Brazilian judo players who sale there techniques on the Bjj band wagon...
the simple answer to your question is that there are many Brazilian jiu jitsu styles and groups... only one Gracie jiu jitsu (tm)... there are many presidents of many organizations...
take care, steve
How? Sure BJJ has a non-traditional image and is a little rough around the edges, but what specifically do you not like? (and I am not talking about teenage idiots on the UnderGround that don't train and just engage in keyboard fights) Every BJJ school I have been to and every instructor I have met have been great. The training atmosphere is laid back and the mutual respect is second to none. I have encountered more smug, lying, fake, wanna be toughguys, weirdos, and flakes in my twenty plus years of traditional martial arts than I have even heard about in BJJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Stay
The BJJ revolution started the mixed martial arts sports here. No matter what anyone did before, it never caught on until a skinny Royce Gracie schooled a few people on pay-per-view.
BJJ caused many martial artist to look at themselves in a different light and make radical changes in their training methods. I am one of them. Not only is my grappling much better, but the way I train standup has changed too.
It's not the ulitmate martial art, but it sure can make a novice a good fighter in a short period of time. It also puts some respect back into the belt ranking system that has been ruined here.
Sure lots of guys that train in it do not know the real history of how it evolved from judo, but that can be said for ALL martial arts. Very few folks actually take the time to learn the real history of their arts. Most just take their instructor's word on it.
And finally, have you tried it?
Hi Cliff,
Nice informative response. No, I have never tried Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, though I've watched it and researched it in various books authored by members of the Gracie Family, and viewed BJJ techniques and matches on video.
(I have an impish sense of humor similar to Mel Gibson which doesn't translate well in a type written medium).
First, mixed martial arts are really nothing new. Again, I closely followed as a teen and in my early twenties the mixed martial art fights put on by a huckster named Aaron Banks, in highly publicized matches in Madison Square Garden about 30 years ago.
There is a well known mixed martial art style called Jeet Kune Do, another called Ketsugo. These were all hot items in the 60s & 70s. I think Krav Magna is the newest mixed M.A. on the block. Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu is just more of the same, trying to be something its not.
Second, during this time period of mixed fighting styles I tried my hand against pankrationists, free style wrestlers, kick boxers, kung fu practioners, Sumo wrestling (sumo was taught in the 60s), kendo players, karate fighters and boxers. I was taught two leg locks by Bruno Samartino (he was a pal of the parents of one of my buddies). In fact, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu strongly reminds me of professional wrestling of the 1960s. Do they have midget BJJ?
I view Brazilian Jiu-jitsu as a true martial art, a true 'jitsu' as opposed to a 'do' style of combat. Yet I resent the circus-like atmosphere and the bombastic hype the Gracie family have subjected this style for their material gain; when Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is hyped as 'unbeatable' and another 'ultimate' martial art while their mounting losses to capable opponents has proven the opposite, then the Gracies have been exposed as another unwanted Aaron Banks, Count Dante, Fred Villari, or P.T. Barnum of Budo.
Sure BJJ has good qualities, now just get rid of the ridiculous multi-colored Gis, the little league politics, Madison avenue marketing methods, poor scholarship verging on propaganda, and the appropriation of pre-existing Judo technique as though the Gracies invented it.
Otherwise, if BJJ existed in the US in the 60s when I started, more than likely I would have been a student, but it offers me nothing new in terms of technique.
Thanks!
__________________
John 'Jack' Stay
South Boston, MA.
Hi Erik,
Thank you for that well written and interesting explanation regarding Judo and Brazillian Ju-Jitsu. I am very well aware of the differences between Ju-do and Ju-jitsu. (See my several threads for my long winded explanations).
I have had common experiences using my Judo against wrestlers, as you seem to have using BJJ against Judo. They are both two different systems with two different sets of rules and combat philosophies.
In Judo a take-down is worth nothing, but in wrestling its worth a point. In Judo you grab the sleeve, not the wrist or fingers, but in wrestling you can grab fingers and wrist. In Judo you hold down one shoulder for the pin (30 seconds to win), in wrestling its both shoulders for the pin (3 seconds to win). In Judo there are arm-bars used to win, in wrestling they have bar-arms used to just hold with no point to win. There are no chokes at all in wrestling.
It was almost impossible to continue the workout between well-meaning and curious wrestlers, since the rules and attitude of wrestling and Judo are so different. So it is between Judo and 'any' style of ju-jitsu.
Ju-do was developed by Dr. Jigoro Kano in 1882 as a safe form of Ju-jitsu. BJJ is still ju-jitsu. In fact BJJ is Kano Ju-jitsu. You might be interested in reading: THE COMPLETE KANO JIU-JITSU (JUDO) (c.1906, 1961) by H. Irving Hancock and Katsukuma Higashi. A good review is on amazon.com
Dr. Kano removed all the nasty dangerous techniques of his two styles of ju-jitsu to form Judo. Naturally Brazillian Ju-Jitsu is more effective, in some ways, against Judo since the BJJ players are using techniques specifically removed and forbidden by Dr. Kano when he designed Judo.
The point now is that Judo is not Jujitsu. They are two seperate systems. BJJ is jujitsu, and is no more compatible for a workout in Judo than is freestyle wrestling.
Dr. Jigoro Kano was a dignified man and understandibly dispised the commercial exploitation and circus-like performance of some martial arts practitioners. He protected his Judo from such sleazy and tacky showmanship. Unlike BJJ.
I do not think that Brazillian Ju-Jitsu will qualify for the Olympics any more than any other style of Jiu-Jitsu, such as Daito-ryu, Hakko-Ryu, Kodokwan, or Dan-zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu's because of their dangerous self-defense and combat orientation. Since one has to be still living as a prerequisite to receive the Nobel Prize, I can only argue that Dr. Kano would have had a good shot at receiving the award.
So yes I do understand the differences between Judo and Jujitsu, and my own Nidan (2nd degree) BB in Hakko-Ryu has complimented my Judo very nicely and has satisfied all my self-defense needs.
Thanks again.
______________________
John 'Jack' Stay
South Boston, MA.
Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions, even if I think they are wrong :)
I still think you should try it.
Hi Jack,
I'm not sure I am understanding your posts correctly.
I figured a solid takedown was worth an ippon in Judo - that's a KO, or a total win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Stay
In collegiate wrestling a takedown is worth two points. Freestyle and Roman-Greco are a little different. I'm not sure of the points there though I believe they are worth 2-5 depending upon the quality of the takedown (anyone else know?)
Collegiate wrestling (remember, there are many types, including what is done in India, Turkey, and Iran) seeks to pin. Judo, as you mentioned, includes submissions. BJJ does not include pins (unfortunately, as I have much better luck holding a guy down than finishing him off).
Submission Wrestling and Catch-as-Catch-Can wrestling include submissions. There's even a Three Stooges episode where Curly gets anklelocked and only gets out of the ring because a woman in the front row was wearing "Wild Hyacynth" perfume. Don't ask me... it's the Three Stooges. But I digress....
That's a great book. I read through parts of it at a bookstore without buying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Stay
BJJ uses a few moves that Judo doesn't allow such as more leg submissions and wrist submissions, it's true. But it's just a different sport. Like I said, though, switching from one to the other does not take too much acclimation. If you're good with one, you can pick up the other pretty well.
For BJJ -> Judo that means learning your takedowns. For Judo -> BJJ that means getting really good at your ground game, your ne waza. There are some details that need working out, but neither concept should be foreign to the other sport.
Actually, I believe the two are quite compatible. Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestlers can pick up Judo really well. At my old dojo we had two Freestyle wrestlers, one of which was on the 1980 Olympic team and did not get to go for a medal because we were boycotting because of the Soviets in Afganistan (now look at us...). They both took to Judo quite quickly, though there was a little acclimation period. Interestingly, our senior sensei was on the 1980 Olympic Judo team (Mario Rubio) and managed to convert the wrestler to Judo, which he's been doing for decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Stay
The biggest differences, other than submissions (a big difference), was the addition of clothing that could be grabbed. No more underhooking for everything. Now you can use clothing. That takes getting used to, even for Submission Wrestlers.
Our other sensei, my personal favorite and a sensei in the very best sense of the word, Greg Rubio, was a magnificent wrestler in high school due to his Judo experience. He just had to learn some different rules and scoring as well as how to work against someone who is not wearing a jacket that can be grabbed.
Ahhh, now I think this is the main point of your apparent dislike for BJJ - the culture of the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Stay
It's true that a big part of Kano's briliance was to dignify the sport of Judo, for lack of a better word. That he made Judo, a sport which involves potentially lethal throws (if on cement), choking and strangling, hyperextending joints, and sweating and sometimes bleeding all over your opponent, something gentlemanly, is sheer briliance.
Part of that has to do with 1) the cultures at the time in regions where Judo caught on, 2) part to do with Japanese culture, and part to do with 3) the aesthetics (beautiful clean white and blue gis, Japanese terminology, and so on), and 4) partly to do with marketing, plain and simple.
BJJ is a little more obnoxious, to say the least, and it draws in people who wish to fight and who like to dress up like race cars. But as for why, well, see reasons 1-4 above:
1) Cultures at the time where BJJ has caught on (places that are fed up with "traditions" and fakes, don't have time to spend a decade evaluating something, and who wish to see something practical and effective more than aesthetic), 2) Brazilian culture (the guys who really indulge in Carnival!), 3) flashy, colorful kimonos/gis, and 4) marketing, plain and simple.
BJJ guys could learn to behave a little better, it's true, but even back in "the day" of Judo, back when Judo-man Kimura beat Gracie, there were a lot of thugs doing Judo - even Kimura and his pals were known to get into trouble at bars and into knife fights. There are a few articles you would enjoy on www.judoinfo.com or something like that.
So, though some of the "polish" of Judo looks nice, it wasn't and isn't always so. BJJ may become something similar in time.
I won't argue with you about Kano's merits - I think he accomplished something almost as wonderful as the guys(s) who invented soccer and brought the world (minus USA) together with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Stay
But I'd sure like to see BJJ become an Olympic sport. Maybe grouped together with Judo like foil, epee, and saber are all fencing. I'd like to see all the grappling sports grouped together in a similar way, and I'd love to see BJJ in there.
Afterall, what's BJJ but Judo with different rules, broader ground game, and less emphasis on takedowns?
And I think you really ought to give it a try. You'd probably love it.
-E
Hi Erik,
I apologize for not making myself clearer regarding the distinctions between a 'jitsu' style of martial art and a 'do' style, specifically between Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo.
Of course a skilled practitioner of BJJ can learn how to do Judo. And of course a exponent of Kodokan Judo can also learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. But a Judoka and a BJJ practitioner are not going to get very far if they compete in a tournament against one another, the rules and techniques are just too different. This was the analogy I was attempting to make describing my experiences of using my Judo against a wrestler. Too many differences in techniques and how to make a point in contest.
Also, I feel that comparing BJJ to Olympic fencing, as a reason for introducing BJJ as an Olympic event, was a weak analogy. Just as Judo is a humane form of Jujitsu; Olympic 'fencing' (with rubber tipped foils, epee's etc.) is a humane form of dueling with live blades. Any style of 'jitsu' is not humane - since Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a combat style, similar to Krav Magna and S.A.M.B.O., and has repeatedly been touted as the ultimate unbeatable martial art by the Gracie Family, I still think BJJ has an equal chance of becoming an Olympic event as dueling with real swords.
And this appears to be the chip on the BJJ shoulder, it wants to be another Judo and accepted into the Olympics and world championships, and it can't. But Dr. Jigoro Kano did it first, he was the first to turn ju-jitsu into ju-do, making a jujitsu style safe and humane for open freestyle practice.
One of genius Dr. Kano's many great achievements was to be the first to turn 'jujitsu' into a 'do' style. As you are probably aware, the Samurai combat arts were in danger of being totally outlawed by edict under the Meiji Restoration in Japan, and the only way to save the 'jitsu' styles, was to reduce them to a less threatening 'do' style. Thus Aikijitsu was turned into Aikido, Kenjitsu was turned into Kendo, karate-jitsu was practiced as karate-do, Ju-jitsu was made into Ju-do, and so on down the martial arts line.
Dr. Kano sent two of his best Kodokan Judo instructors, Yamashita and Masahiko Kimura, to South America to spread his new concept of Kodokan Judo. These two Judo senseis taught members of the Gracie family Judo. All the dangerous techniques which Dr. Kano removed and forbidden to use in his Judo, the Gracie family put back in again, and just reinvented jujitsu. And, what appear to be out of sheer gaul and audacity, called this modification of Kano Jujitsu, Gracie Jujitsu, and began the commercial exploitation and cheap marketing of the marital arts for personal gain.
Compare Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with American Jiu-Jitsu and Swedish Jiu-Jitsu and Sport Jiu-Jitsu and Master Cyr Jiu-Jitsu and Sammy Jiu-Jitsu and Surrey Jiu-Jitsu and Kokusai Jiu-jitsu .... ad infititum . Do you think they all should be considered as events for the Olympics?
Brazilian (Gracie) Jiu-Jitsu is just a form of Judo with all the nasty jiu-jitsu techniques which Dr. Kano removed, put back in. And as with any 'jujitsu' style (over a 'do' style) it is more effective in a street fight or self-defense situation, but not as an Olympic or World Championship event. BJJ would be a lot more worthwhile studying though, instead of Judo, to defend oneself in a street fight (allegedly) only because it is one of the 'jitsu's'.
I hope I clarified myself in order to understand my meaning and opinion of an interesting combat system, BJJ, which will never qualify as an Olympic event.
Thank you. :)
____________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu
I don't think that BJJ is a reinvention of the original ju-jitsu that the Gracies evolved out of Judo. If anything, I think BJJ is more like Judo, just with a different set of rules. As many a Judo practitioner has declared, BJJ doesn't have any techniques in it that Judo doesn't. The whole philosophy behind BJJ is the same one that made Judo so successful - the removal of "deadly" techniques so that the pratitioners can spar at full force without hospitalizing each other. I wouldn't classify BJJ as any more dangerous than Judo in terms of the techniques allowed. In fact, I think that it would complement Judo as an Olympic sport quite well. Just as there are different styles of wrestling, like Greco-Roman and Freestyle, there are different types of Eastern grappling arts. Just as the principles of wrestling are the same between the styles, they develop into very distinct styles because of the rules of competition, the same is true of Judo and BJJ. The principles are the same, but the competitions are different.
PS: I was also under the impression that the only reason it was even called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was because Maeda called it jiu-jitsu (not Judo) when he taught it in the first place.