Who Cares About Lineage?!

Hello all! I'm new here, and I thought I'd make my first post about something that I see all over the place on Ninjutsu websites and discussion forums, including this one. It involves arguments over the legitimacy of people such as Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc. Many people wish to argue about whether or not what they teach is "real", or if it's legitimate ninjutsu.
I've been involved with Bujinkan Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu for a year, but have collected almost every piece of media on the subject (I researched quite a bit before I settled into ninjutsu as a way of life). In more than one place, Masaaki Hatsumi-soke states that ninjutsu, in essence, is survival. If one survives, one is ninja. Of course, there are other factors at play, too, such as using concealment, spiritual studies, etc. The argument in this thread is based only on the statement that ninjutsu is survival.
With that out of the way, the arguments that abound everywhere about the legitimacy of Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, and others are as useful as the knowledge gained from a Trivial Pursuit game. What I want to know is if they have been in life-threatening situations and survived. Masaaki Hatsumi-soke frequently talks about groups of men and women who don't practice the traditional budo, but are likened by him as "ninja-esque" (for lack of a better word). Men and women like the Navy SEAL's, Delta Force Recon, Green Berets, and other members of armed forces in America and other countries, are sometimes used as modern-day applications of centuries-old ninjutsu principles. If Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, or any other target of these arguments have survived such encounters by using stealth (or not), does this make them any less of a ninja (remember, I'm only basing this on the "survival" point)? This is not to rule out that these men may be charlatans trying to make a quick buck off of the ninja name. I'm not picking on Ashida Kim or Frank Dux by saying this. I'm just saying that there are tricksters out there posing as ninja who have no clue as to the real essence of ninjutsu.
Sure, they aren't BUJINKAN ninja. Sure, they aren't GENBUKAN ninja, but you don't necessarly have to trace your lineage back to Toshitsugu Takamatsu-sensei in order to be a ninja.
Please feel free to express your opinions on this. I'm not in such a hot state of mind over this that I'm going to continually check back and argue/agree with other people. This is just food for thought.
NINPO IKKAN!

Wind Eagle

People want to learn the real thing, not some bastardized version of karate and a few sword moves gleaned off of the highlander movies. That's why legitimacy is important.

More to the point, the individuals you have mentioned above have claimed time and time again that what they teach are authentic Koryu (classical) ninjutsu when it has been proven otherwise.

How's this for an analogy; You buy a brand new Mercedes-Benz Sports car and find out that the salesman has screwed you and put a Mini Cooper's engine (Engineering-wise impossible) in the chassis instead of the original engine. Wouldn't you be a bit P.O.ed at that?

Lineage usually becomes an issue when one of these neo-ninja claims some super-duper secret training in Japan, which they can't provide proof of. You're right, lineage to Japan in and of itself does not make one a good martial artist. But, if you're claiming to have trained with a mysterious Tanaka, you should be able to prove it, or drop the claim.

Jeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarutobi Togakure

If Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, or any other target of these arguments have survived such encounters by using stealth (or not), does this make them any less of a ninja (remember, I'm only basing this on the "survival" point)?

Just to add onto what Steve and Jeff wrote, what makes you think that Ashida Kim or Frank Dux did anything remotely close to what they claim?

People are rarely dishonest in just one area of their lives. And the more you find out about Kim and Dux, the more the words "pathological liar" come to mind. They have no proof for anything they claim, and after seeing how they lie about what the learned and who they trained under and how that is a central part of their lives, I am not willing to trust any other story they spew without proof.

Quote:

In more than one place, Masaaki Hatsumi-soke states that ninjutsu, in essence, is survival. If one survives, one is ninja.

Uhhhh.... really.

"A person, when being righteous and sincere, is in accordance with heavenly justice. When a person attains understanding of heavenly justice, he serves the will of god. This is why I referred to the 'mind and eyes of god'. Therefore, the ninja is a person aware of justice.

The above-mentioned principles are the foremost requirements of the ninja. Neither the power of invisibility nor superhuman actions are the first consideration. The ninja are not members of a circus. Nor are the ninja robbers, assassins, or betrayers. The ninja are none other than persons of perseverance and endurance. Togakure ryu ninpo is the very evidence that ninja have lived and protected their happy lives over a thousand years."

(Masaaki Hatsumi, Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions)

"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja."

(Masaaki Hatsumi, Ninpo: Wisdom for Life)

Quote:

If Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, or any other target of these arguments have survived such encounters by using stealth (or not), does this make them any less of a ninja (remember, I'm only basing this on the "survival" point)?

Since when was "using stealth" anything particular or unique to "ninja"?? People were using stealth and covert tactics for thousands of years in a hundred different civilizations before the first ninjutsu ryuha was ever even conceived. Are you going to claim now that all those people, who have nothing to do with Japanese history or culture, are now "ninja"??

Funny. Because, last time I checked, "ninja" is a Japanese word.

Wind Eagle,

Per forum rules, include your full name when posting.

When someone creates a false lineage for themselves, they become a liar. I don't want to study with a liar, I have no respect for a liar. I don't trust any "style" a liar would create or teach.

Better for folks to be honest. If a system is worthy, it'll earn its respect regardless of roots.

Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman

Bujinkan V. Genbukan

Along the same vein, what's the difference between Bujinkan and Genbukan?

I had the opportunity to train at the San Francisco Bujinkan Dojo in May when we were out for some seminars, and it was pretty awesome. I've also trained a bit with some other ninjas occasionally.

Last night I stopped in and watched a class at a local Genbukan school that I found and to be honest I just wasn't that impressed, although I won't judge the school on the basis of watching one class. The Instructor DID seem to have a good knowledge base and seemed physically very competent.

My question is, what are the stylistic differences? What seperates the 2?
Is it just Hatsumi/Tannemura politics?

I find lineage to be VERY important as there is a very real energy transfer that I've personally experienced, and while Glenn Morris and Steven Hayes have both broken away from Bujinkan to an extent and formed their own styles, both are also obviously inspired and developed from the Bujinkan.

Thanks,
Robert Morgen
www.highmountainhoshin.com

Robert,

What do you mean by "energy transfer?"

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Hi Jeff,
In "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master" Glenn Morris mentions the energy transfer (along with the scrolls of the school) between Takamatsu and Soke Hatsumi and mentions that he's even seen Takamatsu's spirit alongside Hatsumi during demo's and training.
I thought that was interesting, but merely a curiosity.

Years later, after having had the chance to train with Dr. Morris, I firmly believe that there is a transfer of energy from teacher to student. I don't know how this is done, or if it's even done purposefully, but I do very firmly feel the energy connection.

Maybe it's just random bujin, for all I know. I'm going to look into the technicalities of this some more and if I come up with better answers and something more scientifically substantial than "Because I feel it" then I'll post on it. :)

On the other hand, I've done enough meditation and I'm self-aware enough that "Because I feel it" is usually good enough for me, although I don't expect everyone else to feel the same way. :)

Suffice it to say that I do agree with all the reasons mentioned above for why lineage is important in the martial arts.

That's why I'm wondering about Genbukan, as I really know nothing about it, other than it's not Bujinkan. Trying to define something by what it's NOT is fairly silly.
Since I'm primarily interested in learning more of the physical skills for Taijutsu, and since Genbukan is available and Bujinkan isn't, I'm just wondering about the differences and how much they matter that way.

Robert Morgen
www.highmountainhoshin.com

lineage

If someone claims lineage, then they should have it!

If it is important to you, then be sure that your teacher truly has it.

" The only thing thats certain, is that nothing is for sure."
(including that statement) :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysticwulf

. . .and since Genbukan is available and Bujinkan isn't. . .

http://www.norcobujinkan.com/ :wink2:

Thanks Dale! :)

I met both Alan and Pratt a few months ago. I didn't know they had this going though, so thanks for the heads up. My schedule changed right after I met them and I haven't been able to get up there again.

I guess what I meant when I said that Bujinkan wasn't available was that it's not available around Littleton, where I live.

Of course, going to Westminster or even Ft. Collins isn't too bad.

Thanks again for the really great time we had out at SF Bujinkan in May. I hope to get out there again.
Later,
Robert Morgen
www.highmountainhoshin.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysticwulf

In "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master" Glenn Morris mentions...that he's even seen Takamatsu's spirit alongside Hatsumi during demo's and training.

I wonder if sojobow sees Tanaka's spirit alongside Silverman during demos and training...

Hello,
I have noticed in several places on this forum where people have asked the differences between the Bujinkan & the Genbukan but no one has really given much of an answer.
I have been in the Bujinkan for many years now and from what I have come to understand is there isn't really much difference at all.
Hatsumi Sensei and Tanamura Sensei both trained under Takamatsu Sensei. Both of them were very high ranking students but before Takamatsu Sensei passed on he made Hatsumi Sensei the new Soke and Tanamura Sensei went on to teach on his own. I have no real info on why he parted from Hatsumi Sensei other then some hear say and conjecture so I guess that is a personal issue between them.
So, to say there is any difference between the two systems other then teaching method or other minor thing would be incorrect seeing that the leaders of both systems came from the same source.
Would this not seem correct? If you read S.K. Hayes' first book, "Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art" Tanamura Sensei was Stephen's first teacher when he went to Japan.
Hope this helps.

Ric

Lineage is as important as knowing who your parents or past school teachers are. I took the time to explore who would be teaching me what I expected to be as important as getting a master's or bachelors degree in a university. I believe Martial Arts is both an Art and a Science that can't come from book, only from one on one contact with a organization that has some roots and legitimacy. I was extremely grateful to be in an area where John Graden had three dojos, he was trained by Walt Bone, Michael Anderson (founder of WAKO), Joe Lewis & Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, who in turn trained with Bruce Lee. But that's just a snapshot of the legimate and recognizable lineage that's important to some MA's. How imortant is the lineage? That's up to you.. :)

Keep that foot up!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicBrannon

Would this not seem correct?

No, it wouldn't. My understanding of Tanemura sensei's training under Takamatsu is that, along with a group of Hatsumi sensei's students, Tanemura sensei met and trained with Takamatsu sensei exactly once -- one single day. The rest of his Takamatsu-den training, apart from what he received as Hatsumi sensei's student, came after the split when he sought out other surviving students of Takamatsu.

I'd also say that, if you feel there's "not much difference at all", you're viewing things on a pretty superficial level. I'm not asserting that either the Bujinkan or the Genbukan is "better", but they're certainly significantly different.

But of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckofDeath

I wonder if sojobow sees Tanaka's spirit alongside Silverman during demos and training...

Where the heck have you been. warhammer has requested your presense. Would be interested in your opinion on a thread : "Training - in Martial Arts." Let us know what you think.

As far as your post on Spirits, sure I do. I can even see your spirit as well as others including Sensei Hatsumi's. Most are virulently fascistic when it comes to sojo et al.

As far as Sarutobi Togakure's original question: "What I want to know is if they have been in life-threatening situations and survived", I cannot comment on Mr. Kim, as I know nothing of him, however, in regards to the other individual co-named, I'm quite sure Hanshi has met your definition and met that definition in more than single digits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojobow

As far as Sarutobi Togakure's original question: "What I want to know is if they have been in life-threatening situations and survived", I cannot comment on Mr. Kim, as I know nothing of him, however, in regards to the other individual co-named, I'm quite sure Hanshi has met your definition and met that definition in more than single digits.

Where, aside from the fantasies spun in his book (which was thoroughly picked apart by Soldier of Fortune, et al).?

Jeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojobow

Where the heck have you been. warhammer has requested your presense. Would be interested in your opinion on a thread : "Training - in Martial Arts." Let us know what you think.

As far as your post on Spirits, sure I do. I can even see your spirit as well as others including Sensei Hatsumi's. Most are virulently fascistic when it comes to sojo et al.

Please consider everything after the above as being deleted. Was only interested in the use of the term "virulently fascistic." Another gentleman introduced me to the term.