Brazillian and Traditional

Hi everyone. I recently found out about a dojo near by my home which offers classes in brazillian jiujiutsu, as well as judo. If I can I will probably join the judo class (if it is kodokan), but i still have doubts about the brazillian jj class. Can anybody please give me some insight on what is different in this style and is it a practical self-defense martial art? I would love to hear what your views are on Brazillian JJ (especially from Barlow sensei cause I hope to study akayama ryu Jujutsu someday) :bow:

Massai, please sign all your posts with your real, full name as required by BudoSeek rules. Thanks!

Both Judo and BJJ are great arts and will offer a solid foundation for self defense skills. BJJ was developed from Judo so there is alot of overlap. However most will agree that Judo is best at standing and BJJ is best on the ground. BJJ schools are more likely to have no-gi classes and NHB/MMA type stuff. They both have a "self defense" aspect and the techniques are similar. If you are most concerned about self defense, then the instructor and school you choose will have more bearing than the style. Both Judo and BJJ have schools that focus mainly on tournament style and neglect the self defense aspect. However the full speed sport training does take your skills to the next level. Look for a school that has a good balance between the sport and "martial" aspect.

http://www.bjj.org is a great source for learning about BJJ
http://www.judoinfo.com is probably the best source out there for Judo info

BJJ or Judo

Massai,
I've done BJJ, Judo and wrestling (and Aikido!). My first love has always been judo though. Sadly, I've found Judo throws to be far more difficult to use than leg tackles and other wrestling tactics, especially from a self defense perspective. Standing on one leg while sweeping/reaping with the other is not a very safe tactic to employ unless you want to throw both of you on the ground in a scramble.
Comparatively, wrestlers just lock their hands around a knee and drive with their head in the opponents chest and come out safely on top of the guy. Tackles take only a few days or weeks to learn and are much more reliable and practical for self defense. I can tackle a guy who weighs 300 pounds by grabbing a leg at the knee. I would NOT try to throw a guy that big.
I did try once. I worked out with Conan Silviera. 6'2 280. I was 150 at the time. HAH! I couldn't move the monster half the time..
Throws take years to become usable, require a strong solid grip on both sides of the guy and require timing and skill and can be countered easily with a lift and slam kind of bearhug done from behind (suplex/rear hip throw).
The BJJ guys will spend almost the entire class fighting on their knees/back doing matwork. But, this means your matwork will become very very strong and reliable. For the first several years of judo, matwork skills are probably the only skill that will work for you anyways in any kind of self defense situation.
You'd be better off learning how to use and counter a few tackles and focus on strong matwork skills if practical skills are your goal as they have always been mine. With strong matwork, you will definitely be able to overcome far heavier, larger and stronger opponents in just a few months. This is no exaggeration. Most people not carefully trained in matwork make huge obvious mistakes that you'll learn to use to win.
For example,most untrained fighters (and beginners) will grab your head or try to hold you down in a headlock, an easy thing to beat if you practice. They'll turn their back once they are taken down to try to stand up from their hands and knees. In BJJ, this is a big no-no. You'll be choked out faster than you can say maaaitaaaiii!!

If you try to learn the same matwork skills in Judo it will take you far longer to learn them as the important details are often neglected or not practiced carefully. At their core, both Judo and BJJ have the same matwork techniques. But, it's all in how you practice them and how good you get at them. In BJJ, you'll develop matwork skills that will rival or beat the best Judo guys you'll ever come across.
I learned differently than the way I'm describing things to you though. I spent quite a few years in judo struggling to make the throws work and found my matwork skills steadily improving over time. I saw very few players having decent success with throws within a 2 year period and the ones that stayed for 4-6 years didn't get much better. And the few that did have success were unable to use those throws without a gi on. But, matwork works fine without a gi except for the gi chokes.
Then I went on to study wrestling and was shocked at how how much easier and more effective it was. If you want to learn reliable takedowns, study wrestling and use it on the BJJ guys just to shut them up (hehehe). The BJJ guys do know a little wrestling but most only know enough to use against non-wrestlers. If you study wrestling and combine it with BJJ you'll have something very reliable and very strong on your feet and on the mat. THe brazilian top team studied plenty of judo and were almost completely unable to use their throws in the UFC. The one throw that did work was the bearhug with a leg hook which is actually closer to a wrestling tackle anyhow. Once they learned real wrestling from Daniel Gholar just a few years ago, their whole game changed. Now because of his teaching them wrestling, they take down everyone and no longer need to rely on jumping into their guard for matwork if their first takedown effort fails.
Best wishes,
Mark Tennenhouse

Great advice from the other two guys.

I think BJJ is eminantly practical for you but you ought to add some striking to the mix. Boxing is fine.

I love Judo but must agree with the above - the throws are impractical on the street. You'll get good at defending takedowns, however, and the ukemi, the falling, may prove to be a surprisingly good thing to have learned, especially if you fall off your bike. No joke.

Sounds like a good gym. You'll do fine there.

I hope you enjoy it.

Good post Mark.

Wow. I must have had some really good judo instructors. My experience with practical throws has been quite a bit different. And, when I began my study of judo in 1979, we did single and double-leg takedowns.

Judo throws do not require a strong grip on both sides. A poorly executed throw requires a strong grip, not a properly executed one.

Any of the leg throws, such as osotogari, are learnable within hours, and extremely practical for self-defense and competition. The "bear hug with a leg hook" falls within this classification of judo throws.

Sorry, I largely disagree with that part of Mark's post. I do acknowledge that it may be because my experience has been unique, not normal. Maybe some other folks with judo experience can chime in on this.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

In general, I agree with what Mark says above, but I would add a few qualifications.

Quote:

THe brazilian top team studied plenty of judo and were almost completely unable to use their throws in the UFC.

True, but remember that in the UFC, fighters compete wearing speedos. Judo primarily relies on an opponent wearing some sort of sturdy shirt or jacket to provide a handle for the throws. Wrestling is better suited for the UFC, because it relies instead on body handles.

Quote:

Tackles take only a few days or weeks to learn ...Throws take years to become usable, ... and require timing and skill...

I agree that the minimum skill necessary to pull off a basic wrestling takedown is less than the minimum skill to pull off a basic judo throw. For that reason I would advocate learning basic wrestling takedowns first. I do feel there is long-term value in learning judo. Judo throws, as Mark points out, are very skill dependent. Once you've learned the timing, sensitivity, balance, and agility necessary to reliably use your judo skills, those attributes can carry over into the rest of your movement. The best takedown artist I ever worked with had a strong background in both judo and wrestling. He was really hard to stop, because while your were defending against one style of takedown, he could hit you with another. Personally, takedowns are one of my weakest skills, but I have found that the wrestling skills I've learned have helped make my judo better, and vice-versa.

Quote:

I can tackle a guy who weighs 300 pounds by grabbing a leg at the knee. I would NOT try to throw a guy that big.

You're 150 pounds and you can effectively single-leg a guy twice your weight? Even if he has good balance and tries to resist? I don't think I've ever pulled off a single-leg in sparring against a guy that big. Of course, my wrestling skills aren't that good. If you can do it, you've got my respect. It might be misleading, though, to imply that most beginning wrestlers will be able to accomplish that with a few months of practice.

Throws vs Tackles

Actually big guys have a harder time defending their legs, especially below the knee. John Smith won the world championships over and over because nobody could stop his ankle grabbing/single leg below the knee tackle. I gave the example of a 300 pound guy, because when facing a huge guy, throws are much harder to use than tackles. I'm sure you've seen these really fat guys, or really broad types around town. Imagine trying a hip or shoulder throw on them..No way senor!..Marcus Silviera (6' 2+) fought in the UFC under the name of Conan. He worked out at a judo club I was at years ago and then I trained a little at his club. Trying to throw a giant guy like that is quite an educational experience heheheh!
I'm not saying throws like osoto gari and ouchi gari/kouchi gari don't work because I use those throws. But, if you compare the skill and amount of training it takes to use a throw effectively against a stronger skillled opponent versus the skill and amount of training it takes to succeed using a tackle, the tackle will win hands down.
In freestyle wrestling where tackles and throws are allowed, it's nearly all tackles and other wrestling moves. I happen to love throws and prefer to fight standing fairly straight and avoid banging my knees on the mat. But, facts are facts. Tackles are easier to learn , more reliable to use when something goes partly wrong, require almost no grip, work with and without a gi, work at all levels of competition, are safe to use..you get the idea. Despite the advantages of tackles, I don't like practicing them as much as throws, but damn they work better.
Kano virtually banned tackles from judo because they were so simple and effective. He said essentially, no tackles from the knees. But why? Because they were considered an "unskilled" technique. Unskilled? good.. Thats the way I like my techniques. So damn easy that they work all the time! He feared that people wouldn't bother learning throws if they could get away with using simple effective tackles instead!
Look at what happens in randori.
In randori, a decent throw leaves both players somersaulting onto the mat out of control rolling over each other from the rotation of the throw. Or one player gets thrown heavily and the other lands on him and injures him slightly. Or, the throw or grip fails and now the guy is behind you ready to lift you up to the ceiling and slam you. Or the guy is a wrestler and grabs the leg you were about to use for sweeping his thigh or ankle..now you're hopping around..hehhe! Or the guy just stiff arms you to death the moment you get near to him and you can't do anything with him.
Sadly, Judo throws are NOT easy even with excellent instruction. Now look at wrestling.
No gi means no way to slow the match down with stiff arms. The players use fast sqatting and ducking motions to fly under each other anytime one player leans over or extends his arms. Often a player just runs and dives at the other after a quick rough setup like a forehead shove. He will still manage to shift around and turn the lousy tackle effort into a clean powerful finish because of their combinations and chained attacks.
The wrestlers take each down over and over much more frequently and powerfully than the judo guys. Each takedown is a full power takedown putting the guy solidly on his back or stomach not his side like in judo. The tackles happen much faster than throws because without a gi, you can make body contact easier and they attack at the knees, often keep attacking by dropping onto their knees, use cross grips, use go behind maneuvers, use different kinds of tie ups to weaken each other's posture and so on..
I spent years learning throws. I found out they don't work against wrestlers unless you study very hard on how to apply them without a gi, which took me a few more years of specialized practice. But, before I did that special practice, I learned how to do simple tackles and other wrestling moves that didn't take much skill or training like the high level single, the snatch, the high level knee pull, the duckunder, the arm drag, the snapdown. All these moves are simple, powerful, require little skill and are tough to beat. Throws take alot more time, more skill and need more of a grip and can fail in lots of ways. So, even though I like throws better, wrestling tactics have alot of advantages over throws.
One place where throws work really well is Sumo. The players shove so hard at short range, that tackles are impossible. After a few face shoves, the players smash into each other's chest,fall right into a clinch. They grab the belt and use throws because they have a strong grip on the belt and have an opponent that is pushing hard to avoid getting pushed out of the ring. I still believe that Judo's true origin is SUMO.. Anyone care to reason for or against that?

Mark Tennenhouse

Mark has some really great points. thanks for some good food for thought.
I don't study judo. I did for a little bit when I was like 10 or 11.

I have been studing jujutsu for 4 years now. The last year of training has been with a traditional jujutsu school. When we are taught throws, we are taught in the beginning to only use two fingers on each hand (The index and thumb). This keeps us from relying on grabbing and tring to control the person. Most of the time we train in regular clothes. Throws should be smooth and in essence easy. The concept of using two fingers to preform throws was odd to me at first, but it has helped a lot. it also keeps your mind open to set up with atemi. atemi, kuzushi, kake.

But as Mark said it takes a lot of skill to be able to throw people when they aren't willing to go down.

my 2 cents.

Gambatte,
Jahun Moayedzadeh

I'd have to agree. I do BJJ and at first I thought throws were teh way to go because they were so much more 'skilled' as you mentioned and i found them more tasteful...but after giving up my back on a few botched ones, I quickly learned that the best way to take someone down, with minimal risk were takedowns at the knees.

On a sidenote, i've been working on the fireman's carry/throw lately, anyone have much luck/success with that one?

I agree with you on the leg idea. Even a big guy can trip over a cat. Just pray the big guy doesn't land on the cat ;).
Dr. Kano, while training in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu (if memory is faithful...), went to a sumotori and asked to see some technques because he was getting trumped at the dojo. Well, he was shown the techniques, with a warning that the two (jujutsu and sumo) were different. Dr Kano returned to the dojo and was again stomped into the tatami. After reading up on sports, he came across a book on wrestling, where he saw the fireman's carry, which he used to defeat his opponent at the dojo. So, it could be reasoned that wrestling was the true inspiration for the forming of Kano Jujutsu, which would later be named Kodokan Judo.

-Russ

Quote:

Originally Posted by backwardwalker

Actually big guys have a harder time defending their legs, especially below the knee....I still believe that Judo's true origin is SUMO.. Anyone care to reason for or against that?

Mark Tennenhouse

Massai,

Sorry to get in on the discussion late. Obviously, I have faith in the style I train in but I can appreciate the strengths that are apparent in BJJ. While I've spent a very limited amount of time (less then 10 hours) training with BJJ black belts, it was obvious that they were very skilled on the ground. While Akayama Ryu does include groundwork, we focus on escaping and getting back to our feet. Devoting so much of our training to groundwork doesn't fit into our strategy and overall view on self defense and combat. Again, I'm not being critical of BJJ when I say it is more sport than combat oriented, just stating how I view it.

I can't see that crosstraining in BJJ could do anything but enhance your self defense ability as long as you don't come to think that every fight must end on the ground. There's a saying I like, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Mark Barlow

The main difference between Judo and BJJ is emphasis. Both share the same set of moves, though they use different names. ( for some reason many people feel that learning a porteguese name is better than learning a japanese name or vice versa ) Judo specializes in throwing and sport. BJJ specializes in groundwork and submissions. Both share the idea of practicing against a resisting opponent. But each has a different set of rules to be followed.

Throws are effective if you know how to use them, and train them right. Judo players learn to throw using the gi because they focus on sport. You can do the same throw with out the gi, but you have to train for that. ( you also have to learn to fall really well ) Heck, I have even been taught to throw ogoshi using only one finger.

The other problem people have with throws is that they get too focused on doing the throw. Just like any move, it can be countered. Trying to force the technique through the counter, does not work well. But, just like any other move, the counter also has a counter. Usually it is just changing to a different throw. If you start with a foot sweep, and they stop that, they are set for a hip throw, if they stop that, they are set for a leg sweep, if they stop that, a sacrifice throw. The trick is to make the adjustment before they do. Yeah, its a timing thing, but what move isn't?

================
On a sidenote, i've been working on the fireman's carry/throw lately, anyone have much luck/success with that one?
================

Get lower. Keep your back straight, and get lower. I think of picking up their ankle. I actually reach low enough to grab their ankle. This puts their center of weight across my back. Now, I am just a tetter totter. I also think of lifting ukes legs, not his weight. If I can get low, go under uke, and lift his legs over my shoulders, uke will be going headfirst towards the ground. I have seen judo variations where tori drops to both knees, never standing up. Its very fast that way, and doesn't require a gi.

I see the difference as the difference between self defense and a duel.
In a duel opponents agree to fight and have rules.
In self defense anything goes. Suprise, crippling or killing techniques, weapons, multiple opponents...

Judo, BJJ, any kind of sport aspect is a duel.

Jeff

That's a good point Jeff, I never thought of it that way. "20 paces at dawn" vs. "storm the beaches at dawn".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Burger

I see the difference as the difference between self defense and a duel.
In a duel opponents agree to fight and have rules.
In self defense anything goes. Suprise, crippling or killing techniques, weapons, multiple opponents...

Judo, BJJ, any kind of sport aspect is a duel.

Jeff

I totally have to go with Jeff Cook on this one.

I have NEVER had a problem utilizing Judo throws in a self-defense situation. I also wrestled in High School (in Oklahoma where wrestling is king) and was the most disqualified wrestler in our school system for throwing my opponents with Judo throws, specifically Harai Goshi and Uchi Mata (I had this little problem with remaining standing, as in Judo shiai, rather than going to the ground. Referees did not like that).

You do not need a judogi, and you do not need sturdy clothing to do Judo throws on the street. I have used them effectively more than once. All you have to do is modify your grip (for instance, rather than grabbing at a non-existent lapel, you underhook the near arm) and use proper kuzushi.

Maybe I am just special since I also do Jujutsu and we do our throws without using a gi. However, if YOU cannot use Judo throws without a gi, don't blame Judo and don't blame the Judo throws. These are not the problem. The problem is that you were not taught how to do these throws without a judogi and in a combative situation. But with a little practice, you can do them and do them very well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Burger

I see the difference as the difference between self defense and a duel.
In a duel opponents agree to fight and have rules.
In self defense anything goes. Suprise, crippling or killing techniques, weapons, multiple opponents...

Judo, BJJ, any kind of sport aspect is a duel.

Jeff

I think all martial artists suffer from the dueling mindset to some extent. We end up training to beat others that train in the same thing.

If someone really wants to be effective at self defense you need a combination of training that includes surprise drills, senario training, realistic defense from common attacks, lots of basics, conditioning, AND the sporting aspect that allows you to go full speed and develop your skills to the best of your ability.

Plus you need to learn about the law, identifying threats, escalating and de-escalating the situation, verbal skills, and to disengage and escape. Throw in weapons and weapon defense on top of that.

Finally self defense involves your brain. Not putting yourself in dangerous situations, being able to control your ego, and not letting simple situations get out of hand.

I seriously doubt there is a dojo out there that covers all these things, regardless of style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Hargrave

I seriously doubt there is a dojo out there that covers all these things, regardless of style.

Maybe the Texas School of Cliffjitsu?

I'm impressed that you (Robert, this time) could get those throws without a handgrip. The only takedowns I managed w/o a gi since I was a kid wrestling through today have been shooting for legs, hip throws if I could get my arm around the guy, duckunders to lifting, twisting and dropping the guy ('til I broke an opponent's arm when he posted and I never even tried that move again), and bear hugs. I never could even set these up with a gi on.

I've been very unsuccessful gi-less using my favorite gi takedowns. I'd sure like to see how you do it - maybe that's something for the Budoseek Training Camp in Louisiana?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik

Maybe the Texas School of Cliffjitsu?

Nope, the next time I open a school it's going to straight McDojo! Lengthy contracts, 32 colored belt steps, musical forms, and 7 year old black belts. I may even throw some no-touch knock out seminars in there too.

Ya'll can all laugh at me as I drive by in my Lexus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Hargrave

Nope, the next time I open a school it's going to straight McDojo! Lengthy contracts, 32 colored belt steps, musical forms, and 7 year old black belts. I may even throw some no-touch knock out seminars in there too.

Ya'll can all laugh at me as I drive by in my Lexus.

:eek: I never figured you for a Lexus.