Boxers - hmmm

**J_24** · 07-30-2005, 14:22

I have a friend who is a boxer, hes very well built, strong and fit.
He tells me stories of trainers hitting their students yelling things like "THIS IS NOT FITNESS!" and "GO BACK TO KARATE!" and hitting students for having an ego etc. Now im a little bit threatened by this guy and others like him, very macho, seems to like voilence, especially boxing, and always superior minded.
I have seen him go and can imaine what it would be like to face someone similar if not him, and how many people who train in boxing (which can be a very dangerous sport) are like this...
In conclusion , boxing seems to me to be a very harsh way of forging spirit,
the hard option, meaning the opposite of soft not easy.
Is what he saying exagerration - because Im a little scared of trying boxing and fighting a boxer, and is this force of testosterone always the product of boxing and weight lifting ? I certainly hope not (imho).
i also have a question- is kickboxing just boxing with kicks ?

**Jason T Gatts** · 07-31-2005, 06:58

Originally Posted by J_24

i also have a question- is kickboxing just boxing with kicks ?

In my opinion (for what it's worth):
Muay Thai is a Martial Art that should be looked at separate from kickboxing. In "American" kickboxing there is a whole spectrum of fighters with different backgrounds and experience. Some are just boxers who want more time in the ring without messing up their boxing record, these athletes often just learn a few basic kicks (usually front snap and round kicks), enter the ring, quickly throw their 6 or 8 mandatory kicks then box the rest of the round - this is "just boxing with kicks". Sometimes a kickboxer is an experienced Martial Artist who wants to try some full contact or is looking for some new training ideas - when this person is in the ring it is not "just boxing with kicks".

As for your other concerns: As a former amateur boxing coach and someone who has trained in the sport for years I can tell you that not all boxers are like your friend. And when he tells you that he gets hit by trainers, feel confident that those trainers are probably wearing 10 or 12oz gloves when their doing the hitting. Remember, as a sport (as opposed to a martial art), boxing makes no claim of creating better people or a better world - only better athletes.

**J4d3** · 07-31-2005, 10:37

if your considering training in boxing as well i say give it a try and go for it.one thing boxers or kickboxers generally have is that they can take punches and martial arts generally won't have you getting hit as often or as hard as boxing training.i would pick MA if i had to because in boxing your training to box other boxers which would be a sound means of self defense if everyone that decided to attack you was in your weight class and there were boxing rings and refs everywhere.i believe boxing and kick boxing is great to augment someones style as long as one can remember to not let it become they're style.what i mean is realizing that you don't have to rely solely on those techniques then.for instance if someone was choking you with both of their hands one shouldn't decide to execute a right hook when an eye gouge or double ear drum slaps may work better.i guess im trying to say if you get it involved don't let it have you thinking inside just one box.as in don't have just a karate-mind or a boxing-mind. be relaxed and try to see what will work and when.heres some info that may be helpful:

www.eastsideboxing.com - theres a forum there perhaps you could pick some brains over there as well.
www.muaythai.com - i thought this site was informative the english slips here and there but it is filled with techniques and the like.

**J_24** · 07-31-2005, 17:05

oh thankyou, great contiributors.

**J4d3** · 07-31-2005, 17:52

no problem at all.glad to help.

**Gene Williams** · 07-31-2005, 22:02

Josh,
If you fear boxers, you should get some experience boxing or doing some real contact work with someone. Learn to hit hard, take some punishment, etc. or, take up BJJ with some serious practitioners. Get on the mat, get roughed up and rough up a few people. That is the only way to overcome your fears of that sort of thing. Many pro and semi-pro boxers are very macho and very tough. No martial artist should sell them short. They hit hard. BUT, you can learn to, as well.

**Jeff Burger** · 08-01-2005, 06:14

"is kickboxing just boxing with kicks "

The boxing stance does allow you to kick well.
You would want to stand like that when leg kicks are allowed.

Jeff

**Gene Williams** · 08-01-2005, 06:32

I know a lot of karate guys who use a boxing type stance when they fight.

**STORMCROW34** · 08-01-2005, 08:26

I can't think of any other way to stand when in a real confrontation. Hands are protecting the face, elbows protecting the ribs. The legs and torso are positioned to be a small target while maintaining mobility and balance.

**Gene Williams** · 08-01-2005, 19:23

Well, there are times when you might not want to give away that you are willing to fight or that you are knowledgeable in self-defense. But, once the cat is out of the bag, I agree.

**shevbo** · 08-01-2005, 20:34

Yes I would say kboxing is basically boxing but with kicks.

That is why I chose it

Although sometimes your trainer/tutor may teach you stuff from other martial arts. So it becomes a more well rounded learning process.

(thats how my trainer does it)

**STORMCROW34** · 08-02-2005, 09:58

Originally Posted by Gene Williams

Well, there are times when you might not want to give away that you are willing to fight or that you are knowledgeable in self-defense.

What, in your opinion Mr. Williams, would be the best way to stand when in the verbal phase of a possible self defense situation? Or if a person or people are approaching you in a way that could be construed as threatening?

**J4d3** · 08-02-2005, 10:02

depending on what kind of kickboxing you train in some is just boxing with kicks,some is boxing with kicks,knees,elbows,clinches etc.

**ezzthetic** · 08-03-2005, 19:15

For every stereotypical brutish, violent macho guy out there you have dozens of hard-working, helpful and just great guys.
But the stereotype gets all the attention for obvious reasons. You simply have to consider the fact that the guy is simply a jerk.

There aren't more jerks in boxing than other fighting systems, but it is much more open at the beginning levels as far as protocol goes. Traditional martial arts enforce certain etiquette as is expected by the general image of martial arts. There is no established expectation or idea of the proper credentials or protocol for boxing training. There is a lot of people out there who are training and coaching people who are just scumsucking bottomfeeders. Even the phony traditional MA teacher guy needs to put a lot more effort into the image and etiquette than a guy who coaches boxing.

Bottom line, do the research and find a real boxing coach. A real boxing coach has a history in boxing, a good reputation as a person as well as a trainer and is neither the "hard-core" beating-his-students type or the mamby-pamby fitness boxing beefcake.

Simply putting on gloves and punching has nothing to do with the art of boxing, but that's all people seem to think about. Boxing is boxing, but boxing is also not just boxing.

Compare the fighters on "the Contender" show to the guys on "The Ultimate Fighter" show. Ideas of protocol for the new sport of MMA are very undeveloped, but you have to seperate the sport from the behaviour exhibited by their practicioners. The breaches of etiquette seen on "the Contender" pale in comparison to the hooliganism on "the Ultimate Fighter". This has nothing to do with the merits of the sports themselves. The TUF show had Nate Quarry, who in my opinion stands out as a great guy and just as developed an individual as any traditional martial artist of the same experience and relative skill level.

My point is that you can't judge the book by the cover or even the cover by the book.

A real boxing coach should introduce you gradually to your limitations and help you overcome them. Sparring is entered gradually under safe supervision.

**Gene Williams** · 08-03-2005, 20:06

Originally Posted by STORMCROW34

What, in your opinion Mr. Williams, would be the best way to stand when in the verbal phase of a possible self defense situation? Or if a person or people are approaching you in a way that could be construed as threatening?

I have discussed this some with my senior students. There are differing opinions. My own feeling is that, in a one on one situation where the potential attacker is angry and vocal but not charging or grabbing you, you should if possible place some distance between you...enough so he can't just reach out and grab or hit without taking a step. I was taught to hold your hands up, palms out, in an "I don't want any trouble" pose. This gets your hands up and ready without actually appearing aggressive. I would casually turn into a half front facing posture as I did this, and keep my knees flexed and my balance even. I think I would just say," I don't want any trouble, so don't come any closer." His step forward would then be considered by me to be an attack. Of course, this is an ideal situation. In the fights I have actually had, things happened a lot more suddenly than that and there was only time to react.
With multiple people approaching, I would first try to turn and leave or go around. If this didn't work, I would try to find a weapon (car aerial, mop, broom, etc.) then put my back to a wall. Multiple opponents is never good, even to a trained martial artist. Again, too much aggressive appearance might escalate the situation, on the other hand, if you could grab one of them and really do something dramatic like poke him in the eyes or quickly choke him out or break his knee or elbow (something that would make him scream in pain) it might discourage the others if they were only punks. If they were hard core, you are going to have a bad evening. I usually carry a pistol if I am out and about, so that would quickly come into play against multiple attackers. Who wants to be the guy with the best Shito ryu at the gun fight?

**STORMCROW34** · 08-04-2005, 15:37

Thank you Mr. Williams.

**MMAfighter** · 08-09-2005, 03:34

J_24, no need to fear man, i mean if a boxer does come at ou i mean a straight up boxer no kicks no nothing, just stay away and throw those leg kicks man, hit the thighs and NEVER ever throw punches with them

**STORMCROW34** · 08-09-2005, 09:52

Originally Posted by MMAfighter

J_24, no need to fear man, i mean if a boxer does come at ou i mean a straight up boxer no kicks no nothing, just stay away and throw those leg kicks man, hit the thighs and NEVER ever throw punches with them

And hopefully 1 thigh kick will do it. Because if he is a decent boxer and you stay stationary long enough to kick his leg, chances are you are going to get hit with some hard punches. Remember that boxers are very, very good at timing and judging distances because they spar all the time at full speed and power. Which also means they know how to hit very hard and are very capable of taking sustained punishment.

My advice would be not to tangle with anyone at all, especially a boxer.

**MMAfighter** · 08-09-2005, 10:35

Yea i gotta agree with stormcrow the best way would be not to tangle up with a boxer. But if you do, never get into a punching game you'll black out then wake up on your back

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