Chinese Kenpo?

**MMAfighter** · 08-13-2005, 01:32

Is there such a style as this? I was playing tekken 5 and one of the characters style was called Chinese Kenpo and from the videos in the game it looked more like some type of shaolin kung fu, unless there's a type of Kenpo that's more kungfuish

**dingodog1** · 08-14-2005, 06:19

Several. I know that the old Marine, Ron Van Clief, who fought in the UFC's style was Chinese Kenpo. I've seen the style referred to many times over the years. I believe that guy Steve DeMasco or whatever his name is also practiced it.

**Gene Williams** · 08-14-2005, 07:13

It is also used generically by a bunch of wannabee soke who make up their own stuff...Yeah, didn't Van Clief look great in UFC

**sean_stonehart** · 08-14-2005, 19:27

*ouch* but very true Gene. Chinese Kenpo by name is as much an oxymoron as American Karate.

**Southwell** · 08-14-2005, 19:31

Kenpo's birth is in China,it was passed down through the Mitose family who studied the art in China.But since the Mitose family was Japenese they brought it back to Japan.From there it was taken to Hawaii by James Mitose,who taught William Chow who then taught Ed Parker.Hope this helps, Scott

**Katsujinken** · 08-15-2005, 17:17

[QUOTE=Southwell]Kenpo's birth is in China,it was passed down through the Mitose family who studied the art in China.But since the Mitose family was Japenese they brought it back to Japan.

The birth of Kempo is certainly China, but the Mitose line is only one possible explanation of how one form of Kempo is believed to have evolved. We can classify the lines that begin with Chin Gem Pin as Kempo also, many years before Mitose and there are other such styles as well as more recent ones such as Shorinji (Shaolin) Kempo (Chaun Fa).

Kempo is simply the Japanese name for Chaun Fa or for a Chinese art.
As has been said Chinese Kempo is an oxymoron. Having said that I was once told, many years ago, that Kempo was the basis of Shaolin Chaun Fa.

We also have Shigeru Nakamura's Okinawan Kempo along with other Okinawan Kempo's which probably have a stronger and more identifiable basis in Chinese Chaun Fa.

Regards

Chris Norman

**littlecelt** · 08-16-2005, 16:41

As someone who practices Shaolin Kenpo and Modern Arnis, I will refer everyone to a few links that discuss the different aspects of Kenpo's history. It gets a bit complicated - Hey! just like every other style of MA!

http://www.tracyskarate.com/History/histindex.htm
http://www.american-kenpo-legacy.com...tpages&subid=5
http://www.sanjosekenpo.com./articles.htm

Our self-defenses are taught to work with basic reflexes while the combinations build onto them. Street-wise, down & dirty. As you gain rank, you get exposed to different levels of live training. From dragon circles with lights on, then w/out lights, then you have to defend on the ground or in a chair, get through a doorway/hallway, etc...

The more I study, the more questions I have. The folks at my school come from such varied backgrounds that we get exposed to Aikido, Judo, Hapkido and TKD every week. Grappling and Arnis are such a natural fit that they only improve the Kenpo curriculum - giving you a new perspective from which to view the attack/defense. If you can't tell, I think Kenpo is a good choice in today's world; when taught by the right instructor.

I started to smile a bit typing this because as much as the training is tough, as it should be - I'm one of those who love katas. In this Kenpo style, there are alot and right now, I don't mind. Ask me in a couple of years...

Before condeming all Kenpo because of 'some' bad apples, please realize that every style is going to have their frauds.

**Katsujinken** · 08-17-2005, 19:07

I thought the thread was about whether there was such thing as Chinese Kenpo/Kempo. So are you saying that there is such thing as Chinese Kenpo called Shaolin Kenpo? or are you talking about the Villari version of Shaolin Kenpo?

What puzzles me here is why someone would use Shaolin rather than Shorin (One of the Japanese words for Shaolin) with a Japanese word (Kempo/Kenpo) for an art that would seem to be claiming claiming Chinese origin but through a Japanese or Okinawan lineage of some sort or having been a Chinese influence on a Japanese or Okinawan art.

Though having said that Kenpo often tends to be the spelling used for the Hawaiin/American version, though obviously the terms Kenpo and Kempo are interchangeable and either spelling can be used in both the phonetic translation of the Japanese/ Okinawan Kanji.

The links posted all seem to relate to American Kenpo's, rather than anything that could be specifically called Chinese Kenpo.

As for Mitose, to whom the links posted appear to relate to, as much as I have respect for his contribution and development of his line of his Kenpo/Kempo, there are so many versions of the history now. I.e. There is one claim relating to the Motobu family, which like many of the claims cannot be substantiated. To my mind it is clearly questionable about any ancient links especially going back to the 12th Century as one of the links seems to suggest.

Anyway see further http://seinenkai.com/ and click on Mitose, this gives an outline of where some of what appeared in Mitoses book What is Self defence Kempo Jiu-Jitsu actually came from.

Quote:
'Before condeming all Kenpo because of 'some' bad apples, please realize that every style is going to have their frauds'.

Dont think anybody is doing this, some one merely pointed out that the term is used by many wannabe Sokes.

Regards

Chris Norman

**Steel** · 08-17-2005, 19:42

[QUOTE=Katsujinken]

Originally Posted by Southwell

Kenpo's birth is in China,it was passed down through the Mitose family who studied the art in China.But since the Mitose family was Japenese they brought it back to Japan.

The birth of Kempo is certainly China, but the Mitose line is only one possible explanation of how one form of Kempo is believed to have evolved. We can classify the lines that begin with Chin Gem Pin as Kempo also, many years before Mitose and there are other such styles as well as more recent ones such as Shorinji (Shaolin) Kempo (Chaun Fa).

Kempo is simply the Japanese name for Chaun Fa or for a Chinese art.
As has been said Chinese Kempo is an oxymoron. Having said that I was once told, many years ago, that Kempo was the basis of Shaolin Chaun Fa.

We also have Shigeru Nakamura's Okinawan Kempo along with other Okinawan Kempo's which probably have a stronger and more identifiable basis in Chinese Chaun Fa.

Regards

Chris Norman

No offense meant whatsoever, but that sounds as if it were taken directly from a page of the USSD's training manual.
As usual, I agree with Sean Stoneheart. While I respect Kenpo-Kempo as an art in itself, it can trace its roots back to Shaolin with the same ease as I can trace my roots back to Adam and Eve...

**DatuSadiq** · 08-17-2005, 20:57

Ron Van Clief is not Chinese Kenpo, He is Chinese Goju.

**littlecelt** · 08-18-2005, 16:17

Please read this with a smile and a little bit of humor – since that’s how it was written.

Wow, I'm not really sure where to start. How about here ---->

Originally Posted by Katsujinken

I thought the thread was about whether there was such thing as Chinese Kenpo/Kempo. So are you saying that there is such thing as Chinese Kenpo called Shaolin Kenpo?

You see I thought MMA Fighter was asking a simple question, is there a form of Chinese Kenpo? Should be a fairly yes or no question right? Ah, but not here!

I guess I was hoping to show that no matter what the origin of your style or how in dispute it is, that the value you get out of it doesn't always come from a lineage.

Oh, and yes, I am saying there is such a thing as Shaolin Kenpo since I write a check for it every month. If you want to get into semantics and translations go for it. Not my thing, I just know to show up and train, they could call it Little Bunny FuFu and I’d still go. Actually, I think I remember something about Little Orange Tabby Do??

Where was I?? Oh yeah, here ----------->

Originally Posted by Katsujinken

or are you talking about the Villari version of Shaolin Kenpo? What puzzles me here is why someone would use Shaolin rather than Shorin (One of the Japanese words for Shaolin) with a Japanese word (Kempo/Kenpo) for an art that would seem to be claiming claiming Chinese origin but through a Japanese or Okinawan lineage of some sort or having been a Chinese influence on a Japanese or Okinawan art.

Let's see, Villari?? no, not Villari... LOL
But Cerio yes and he is from Mitose’s lineage.
Is Shaolin vs. Shorin the only thing that puzzles you here? Boy are you lucky!! My concerns when choosing a school dealt with the people in the school, not what was on the sign outside. I will say that I love and respect traditions. My choosing a MA that is not traditional is not a statement either way, just the way it happened.

My point? I was hoping to show that there is such a mix of everything, in Kenpo, that I'm sure that someone, somewhere, is claiming a direct Chinese Kenpo link. I've got one form called Statue of the Crane - I bet if Sean saw it he'd roll over laughing (or crying), swearing up and down that there was nothing remotely crane-like in it.

**Katsujinken** · 08-18-2005, 16:48

Quote:
'Ron Van Clief is not Chinese Kenpo, He is Chinese Goju'.
Yeah, I thought that as well.

Quote:
'No offense meant whatsoever, but that sounds as if it were taken directly from a page of the USSD's training manual'.

No offence taken, it most certainly wasnt, dont know what USSD is anyway and as for agreeing with Sean Stoneheart, I most certainly was not disagreeing. Chinese Kempo is certainly an Oxymoron to my mind.

Quote:

'is there a form of Chinese Kenpo? Should be a fairly yes or no question right?'
Ok yes I suppose it is down to Semantics, Academic brain working overtime I guess. Its always seemed an odd combination as I stated.

Quote:
'no matter what the origin of your style or how in dispute it is, that the value you get out of it doesn't always come from a lineage'.

Dont disagree with you, but ultimately it may do so but then it depends on what you are seeking out of it. I totally agree with you about the people and not the sign outside, the people though do often come down to lineage, but then as said it depends on what you are seeking.

Regards

Chris Norman

**sean_stonehart** · 08-18-2005, 18:48

Originally Posted by littlecelt

My point? I was hoping to show that there is such a mix of everything, in Kenpo, that I'm sure that someone, somewhere, is claiming a direct Chinese Kenpo link. I've got one form called Statue of the Crane - I bet if Sean saw it he'd roll over laughing (or crying), swearing up and down that there was nothing remotely crane-like in it.

Maybe I already have & expressed my findings to the person that shared it with me.

No need to go into detail outside of our private conversation, but I've said my piece on that topic.

**jjaje** · 08-18-2005, 20:40

You guys are doing good. I had feared a "one of those" threads with petty bickering as a thread like this read by both traditionalists and non-traditionalists and Chinese and non-Chinese ma practitioners can get snippy.

Personally if there are still new and useful things to learn, that's what really matters.

I'm going to practice now.

**gr455h0pp3r** · 08-25-2005, 13:17

Ok i have some questions.
Why are there 5 shaolin animals? Why is the training hall called a Dojo?
Why do people say its a mixture of chinese kung fu and japanese karate?
Is this kenpo i talk about (law of the fist) modern or traditional or some kind of mix ?
Is this Modern Kenpo/Kempo forum based on Chinese, Shaolin or other Kenpo?
Whats the Difference Between Chinese, Shaolin, Shorinji and others?
What does Chinese Kenpo Karate mean?

**littlecelt** · 08-25-2005, 16:23

Ryan,

I can definately understand your confusion so please take this question as it's meant. There is so much background and history involved in the different 'family's' of Kenpo that we would have to start at least 3 or 4 different threads and each one would end up becoming a book to answer all of your questions.

Could you perhaps explain why or what has prompted these questions? This might give us what we need to help answer you.

**gr455h0pp3r** · 08-26-2005, 06:25

Im just trying to get a better understanding of what all this kenpo is, and what it is that I think kenpo is...

**DragonMind** · 08-26-2005, 14:24

Originally Posted by gr455h0pp3r

Ok i have some questions.
Why are there 5 shaolin animals? Why is the training hall called a Dojo?
Why do people say its a mixture of chinese kung fu and japanese karate?
Is this kenpo i talk about (law of the fist) modern or traditional or some kind of mix ?
Is this Modern Kenpo/Kempo forum based on Chinese, Shaolin or other Kenpo?
Whats the Difference Between Chinese, Shaolin, Shorinji and others?
What does Chinese Kenpo Karate mean?

Five animals - who knows why those five? Across Chinese systems there are a lot more than five animals represented. There is so much baloney about the Shaolin temple/monks that I don't take any of it as gospel. Personally, I think it was a marketing gimmick. <Bad Asian Accent>Hey, you want martial art? He only got two animals, we got five!</Bad Asian Accent>

Why is the hall called a dojo? The kenpos and kenpo derivatives that came from Hawaii (Ed Parker, William K. S. Chow, Adrian Emperado, etc.) all hail back to James Mitose - a Japanese man. Dojo is Japanese. Shorinji kenpo is also Japanese derived so dojo makes sense there too.

The word kenpo has a lot of baggage and misuse associated with it. There is no such thing as a "pure" kenpo. Basically, kenpo/kempo is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese ideogram Ch'uan fa. Since we're only talking pronunciation, the meaning is still the same. If I had to guess, I'd say the Chinese is probably the original. As far as all the rest of the modifiers (Shaolin, Chinese, Karate, Kung Fu, etc.) are concerned, I lump them into the category of marketing devices.

Shorinji Kenpo is an animal unto itself. I wouldn't presume to try and speak for them, so please ask David Noble or Tony Kehoe.

The evolution of kenpo in the US is largely derived from the various Mitose lines and partly fueled by some deep-seated animosities and rivalries. The Spanish Inquisition (nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition) had nothing on the nastiness that occurs in the kenpo world when it comes to purity and lineage. My advice is just don't go there.

Chinese Kenpo Karate is a very confused marketing message. It's right up there with Shaolin Kenpo (which is the system I study under, go figure), American Karate and Korean Judo for best oxymoron outside of government.

I'm sorry but if you are looking for hard and fast answers and the single version of the truth, you are never going to find it in the martial arts. There is too much ego involved to ever know the real truth. Shame isn't it when we profess to teach good moral character but end up with so many distortions of the truth. I bet if you counted them, there are so many teachers claiming to be trainers of LEO and SpecWar operatives out there that every single LEO or SpecWar guy had five personal trainers apiece at all times.

**sean_stonehart** · 08-26-2005, 16:59

Brilliant Barry... bravo!!

**Katsujinken** · 08-27-2005, 11:07

Quote: ‘There is so much background and history involved in the different 'family's' of Kenpo that we would have to start at least 3 or 4 different threads’

So true, not my intention to start that, but here is another perspective on the first three questions:

The earliest recorded form of Chinese boxing (Chaun Fa) is said to be found in the ‘Book of Rights’ published during the Chou Dynasty (1125-255 AD) between 770-481 BC. So here begins very long and diverse histories from the Chinese seed of origin. Not going to attempt that either, just going to give a slightly different perspective.

1. Why are there 5 Shaolin animals?
‘Quote: Across Chinese systems there are a lot more than five animals represented’.
There are also numerous different versions of what these five animals were, here are two versions about Shaolin Five Animals, with slight variations, but interestingly neither is originally from Shaolin.

Version 1
During the late Han period between 25-220 AD that there lived a Chinese surgeon by the name of Hua To, who is said to have developed some exercises based on the movements of the Tiger, Deer, Bear, Monkey and Bird.

Version 2
During the Yuan dynasty between 1260-1368 AD a Shaolin monk called Cheuh Yuan is said to have revised the original eighteen exercises called the ‘I Chin Ching devised by Bhodidharma (Daruma) said to be the founder of Shaolin.’ By doing this Cheuh Yuan created the basis for the original seventy-two styles that claimed their origin from Shaolin.

Later Li Ch’eng and Pai Yu Feng created one hundred and seventy movements from the seventy two styles that Cheuh Yeun had created from the original eighteen exercises. The one hundred and seventy movements devised by Li Ch’eng and Pai Yu Feng were divided into five styles that represented the essences of the human body and their correspondence in the animal world.

The five styles were
Dragon, which stood for spirit,
Tiger for bone,
Leopard for strength,
Snake for Chi,
Crane for sinew.

For some it was this division which provided the basis for what became the five animal styles of Shaolin. However this is only two versions of an infinite number of others depending on line, history, mythology and more recently in modern times there have been versions based on fictional martial arts films.

2. Why is the training hall called a Dojo?
As has been said Mitose was Japanese. Kempo as has already been said is Japanese name for Chaun Fa.
The Kenpo’s that have their origins in Hawaii and stemming from Mitose are predominant among many members of this forum here. There are however also Japanese and Okinawan Kempo’s. For example Kenshinkan of Fusei Kise, Ryuku Hon Kenpo Kobudo of Seikichi Odo and Ryukyu Kempo of Taika Oyata are all Okinawan Kempo’s.
There are also Japanese Kempo’s such as Tenjin Shinyo Ryu which are classified as Ju Jutsu as well along with Ju Jutsu systems that have Kempo’s as a distinct section within their Ryuha such as Takenouchi Ryu’s Hade and the Araki Ryu. Apart from these there is also Shorinji Toraken/Tetsuken Ryu which can be traced through Albert C Church which has been popularised in the USA & Europe. Then tehre is the Kempo that stems from Robert Trias.

3. Why do people say its a mixture of Chinese kung fu and Japanese karate?
Kempo is Kung Fu (Chaun Fa) the Kara of Karate was Tang, it meant China, Te is hand, so China Hand. Some say it was Chinese Chaun Fa (Kung Fu) that was integrated with the native Okinawan art of Te that lead to the creation of Okinawa Karate, in which many Kata are of Chinese origin.

3. Is this Kenpo I talk about (law of the fist) modern or traditional or some kind of mix?
Depends on which Kenpo/Kempo you are talking about and what is that you mean by modern and traditional. These terms can be widely defined, and with so many different forms/types of Kempo/Kenpo you will get so many different authentic answers that appear to contradict. Some people would only regard something as traditional if its origins are before a certain date, but the date can vary, others by use of certain terminology and etiquette.

Regards

Chris Norman