Choosing a School?

**phooey** · 08-25-2005, 15:07

Here’s my situation:

I’ve never taken martial arts before, and I’m interested in starting. Specifically, I’m looking for something that would teach me practical self-defense, even against multiple attackers &/or weapons. I’m not interested in flashiness, organized competition or any other sporting aspect. Belts aren’t important to me as long as the training is top-notch.

So, I started looking around and researching the styles that are available in my area. Digging through the weed patch of TKD McDojos, etc, here’s what looked promising:

Shotokan karate
Kyokushin karate
Krav Maga
Professional Fighting Systems (JKD, Kali, Muay Thai, BJJ)

The last two especially caught my attention. Here’s where my dilemma begins. On paper, KM looks like it would meet most of my needs, but here’s a summary of what people around here have told me about the local school: “It’s just a national karate chain that wanted some extra revenue so they got certified in KM as a sideline. The problem is they’re only certified to level 2 and so they’ve lost a lot of students because they can’t teach them much beyond the rudimentary stuff.” I don’t know if this is typical for KM, if this is just some kind of sour grapes, or if this is unusually bad. I don’t even know if level 2 is beginner or advanced.

OK, so I looked at the PFS place. The guy seems kinda young (mid-twenties) to an old fart like me. He basically went to a couple of Vunak seminars and then trained himself. He’s now a phase 1 instructor and has been teaching PFS for a year or two now. Is this a typical entry into teaching JKD? On paper, PFS looks great, but I worry about the depth of instruction.

As for the other two (shotokan & kyokushin), I’m not a fan of forms/kata, but if neither the KM nor PFS work out, I would be willing to check them out. There’s even a group that teaches ninjitsu once a week, as well as a shaolin kung fu school, although they seems to focus too much on the culture/ancient weapons side of things. Would any of these be in the same ballpark?

I haven’t visited the schools yet because A) I don’t know enough about MA yet to know if I’m watching good instruction or bad, and B) I thought I’d get some input from this forum first. Am I worrying too much? I don’t want to end up being too hard to please, but I do want to avoid learning from someone with incomplete training.

Any advice?

**Eye4NEye** · 08-25-2005, 15:35

Originally Posted by phooey

The guy seems kinda young (mid-twenties) to an old fart like me. He basically went to a couple of Vunak seminars and then trained himself. He’s now a phase 1 instructor and has been teaching PFS for a year or two now.

I would run very far away from this school. As fast as you can! Going to a couple of seminars and then self teaching in no way makes him qualified to teach you anything. I'd be leary of this school.

If the KM school has a bad reputation, then listen and then go see for yourself if you are really interested. If what you hear turns out to be true, then look at one of the other schools you listed.

It's all about finding the right teacher and teaching enviroment and less about finding a style. Find those, train hard, and you will be golden.

**moogong** · 08-25-2005, 15:50

Ed, the KM franchise you are talking about is the ATA. I give my opinion here but do a search on this board for them. They have been discussed many times over.
PFS is a mixed bag, IMO. Vunak seems to be on the right track but I have met a few of his students and was not very impressed.
I would advise you to try the Kyokushin karate school. Oyama was/is not known for having turned out limp noodle instructors. My advice would be to stop by and observe a class from that dojo.

**phooey** · 08-26-2005, 13:42

Thanks for the input. Any JKD people have any insights?

**arod** · 08-26-2005, 21:11

I agree with Charles. ATA is not what you’re looking for. I say that from years of experience. Anyway, I won’t get on my soap box about that. I would say find a small dojo that has been around for a long time and spend a little time checking it out. It is all about how you like the teacher. Place less emphasis on the style.

Good luck to you.

**TIRAGION** · 08-26-2005, 22:09

Impo in your case I would stay with Kyokushin, I heard goodthings of it. KM is great if tought by a qualified guy, not someonewho is seminar trained. This also applies to JKd guy. And no normal route in JKD is to get training for a while before you start teaching. Self training/self teaching is very different from doing drils/training by oneself.

All the best in your search

_____________________
Alexander Rakita

**Stratiotes** · 08-27-2005, 18:44

I think you might find Systema (Russian Martial Art) quite interesting and very much what you're looking for. I began working MA in Karate and it can be quite good but I think you will want something different for the things you are describing and the best fit I can think of would be Systema. There is a Russian Martial Arts forum here under the "Other" arts group so you could look into it there.

Also, there are many many links at my website to do some research on the web. Use the "Systema Review" link in my signature below.

Best of luck in your search.

**phooey** · 08-28-2005, 00:04

I've read up a little on Systema and would certainly give it a shot if I could (like Krav Maga, it seems to have that streetwise, no frills mentality that I'm looking for), but my research has failed to turn up a school even remotely close enough. It's strange, there are a lot of styles available around here but upon closer inspection, most seem to be either a mcdojo aimed at kids ("we build tomorrow's leaders!") or run by some nutball who's into the mystical side of MA (or it's legitimate school teaching a style that I'm not interested in). I may end up digging around to find someone really good who's willing to teach me out of their home or just waiting until the situation changes, because to me no instruction is better than lousy instruction. Or, based on what's available, I might also try a free trial month of the KM, just to see how they handle it, and then check out the kyokushin. If the JKD guy was trained well he would be perfect, but oh well.

Thanks for the opinions, everyone. It's helping me better understand what I'm hearing from these guys. I welcome as much input as possible. Any others?

**Stratiotes** · 08-28-2005, 06:27

I had a similar situation of not being able to find a Systema school very close. For a while I just drove the distance until I gained some confidence. One of the interesting things about the way Systema training is done is that it can only be learned by practicing with another person - and it is developing a style that nobody can teach you. So it isn't instructor-led so much as fascilitator-led. For that reason, you can start a training partners group without having a certified instructor. It sounds like heresy to most martial arts folks but once you start doing it I think you'll find it can be very effective for learning...especially if you are a bit older and disciplined enough to work at it.

After a while training with the group that was really too far away, and attending some seminars, I started asking around among friends to find people I could practice with. When I found a couple, I just started practicing with them twice a week. Our group has grown now and after about a year we have about 15 people in our training partners group. All of us work together and attend seminars or classes with certified instructors when we can but the bulk of our learning is from each other. It may sound like it isn't structured enough but it really does work.

I'm not trying to pressure you into doing my favorite art. I'm honestly just trying to encourage you that the option is there and not to let the lack of a school hold you back from what you want to do. If you aren't comfortable with the idea, I understand. I wasn't either at first but a friend encouraged me to do it and now I'm very glad he did.

Systema is nothing at all like a traditional martial art - so if you're looking for a traditional art, you'll be very disappointed. But, if you're willing to think outside the box and do the work, I think you'll find great reward.

**Budoka34** · 08-28-2005, 10:22

Ed if practical self-defense skills are your goal I would suggest, as has been stated previously, observe some classes at the schools that interest you.

You could study at a "martial arts" school for years and not become a competent fighter or study a "fighting style" under some yahoo and end up with the same result.

My original Kyokushin instructor was very focused on teaching the art, but he also spent alot of time on "real world" self-defense, multiple attackers etc....

Don't let forms/kata scare you off. There is a lot to be gained in the repetitive action and focus. This is one of the best ways to develope a core response to actions.

Ultimately it comes down to what you feel you need. Try out the classes at the schools that look most interesting and don't expect to find instant skills. Like anything worth having; it takes hard work and determination.

Good luck. Please let us know how the search goes.

**DragonMind** · 08-29-2005, 15:36

Ed, I'm going to give you something to think about from a different direction. First, a bit of heresy. Learning a martial art is not about self defense, and self defense does not require a martial art. You want real self defense? First learn how to shoot a gun under low light/stress conditions, learn situational awareness, and learn verbal de-escalation techniques. Also, learn defensive driving, and home security design. Finally, learn how to use a stick (impact), knife (blade) and rope (flexible) weapons and work out with some boxers for your empty-hand needs.

If you're looking for a martial art, find a good teacher and take whatever they teach. Then enjoy the ride.

**TIRAGION** · 08-29-2005, 18:36

I would second Dragonminds advice. Its probably the most valid from all that where given previously mine included. Self-defense and MA while related are not the same animal. Nice one Dragonmind...

_______________________
Alexander Rakita

**arod** · 08-29-2005, 19:50

Originally Posted by DragonMind

Ed, I'm going to give you something to think about from a different direction. First, a bit of heresy. Learning a martial art is not about self defense, and self defense does not require a martial art. You want real self defense? First learn how to shoot a gun under low light/stress conditions, learn situational awareness, and learn verbal de-escalation techniques. Also, learn defensive driving, and home security design. Finally, learn how to use a stick (impact), knife (blade) and rope (flexible) weapons and work out with some boxers for your empty-hand needs.

If you're looking for a martial art, find a good teacher and take whatever they teach. Then enjoy the ride.

I agree except guns are not a practical option for most people. It is an easy thing to say but the reality is, most people don’t own a gun let alone carry one around. Better to learn how to use what god gave you, most importantly your brain. Be cognizant of potentially dangerous situations and avoid them. Train hard with a knowledgeable person. Oh and one more thing, a big well-trained dog wouldn’t hurt

**phooey** · 08-29-2005, 21:29

I have had some professional tactical handgun training from a SWAT instructor. I'm not LEO, but if you pass a background check he accepts civilians. Top notch stuff, and very eye-opening. Everything I thought I knew about shooting was wrong. Anyway, he suggested Muay Thai and Kali, saying these have literally saved his life in the past. That's how I approached my search as described above. I agree with everyone here, I think that finding a good instructor is the most important thing. That's why I had concerns about the qualifications of the places I described in my first post; I haven't had enough exposure to martial arts to know if their backgrounds sounded legit or not.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

**DragonMind** · 08-30-2005, 14:05

Originally Posted by arod

I agree except guns are not a practical option for most people. It is an easy thing to say but the reality is, most people don’t own a gun let alone carry one around. Better to learn how to use what god gave you, most importantly your brain. Be cognizant of potentially dangerous situations and avoid them. Train hard with a knowledgeable person. Oh and one more thing, a big well-trained dog wouldn’t hurt

Knowing how to use a gun better enables you to make the decision about whether or not you want to include it in your strategy. Given a lot of the people I meet, I'll take the gun over their brain any day.

Good point about the dog.

hizaguchi · 08-30-2005, 14:24

I agree about looking for your self defense needs outside the martial arts. However, if you do decide to go for one of the arts you mentioned, I would personally take the Kyokushin. It is supposed to be very brutal, with full contact sparring without protective gear and alot of focus on toughening the body. It may not be as practical as a gun or a self defense course, but as long as the teacher is good, I would jump at the chance to train. Kyokushin schools are fairly rare.

**DragonMind** · 08-30-2005, 14:48

Originally Posted by phooey

Anyway, he suggested Muay Thai and Kali, saying these have literally saved his life in the past.

I second his recommendations. Muay Thai is a tremendous work-out and very effective at close-quarters fighting (typical assault ranges). I'm an Arnisador and can vouch for the effectiveness of FMA (Filipino Martial Arts). Kali, Arnis, and Escrima are basically alternative names for the same thing. The differences are mostly from what part of the Phillipines the particular style comes from. There is so much cross-pollination of FMA that all of them contain the same core elements and vary mostly in where particular emphasis is placed. For example, Balintawak is primarily a stick fighting style, Sayoc Kali loves blade work, and Modern Arnis was developed to promote safer training methods. One of the things I like about FMA is they all start from a weapons viewpoint and translate to empty-hand later. In a self defense situation, I'm using empty hands only as my last resort. This isn't a fair fight or a points competition.

If you let us know where you're located, we might be able to suggest schools or teachers that may not be in the phone book, or a short distance away.

**phooey** · 08-30-2005, 19:48

Originally Posted by DragonMind

If you let us know where you're located, we might be able to suggest schools or teachers that may not be in the phone book, or a short distance away.

Madison, WI

**Stratiotes** · 08-31-2005, 07:00

I do know of a certified Systema instructor who is quite good and lives in WI somewhere. I can get you connected with him if you like.

**Tony Dismukes** · 09-23-2005, 16:47

Ed, I just noted that you're in Madison, Wisconsin. If you're interested in Brazilian Jujutsu, you should check out the Madison Jujutsu Academy (link). It's a Jorge Gurgel affiliate school, so the instruction should be pretty good.