How old is Ninjutsu really?

[Mikey Triangles]

How long has ninjutsu truely existed? Is ninjutsu the oldest form of Budo... if not then what is?

I've heard there is secondary documentation of a grappling art that existed in Japan in the 8th century, and that there is documentation of the formation of various styles of jujutsu being formed in the 12th century, and primary documentation of a jujutsu school being founded in the 16th century, but I haven't seen any mention of ninpo, ninjutsu, or the ninja in any documentation until during the Edo period (17th to 19th centuries).

Is there just a mass confusion caused by several Asuka period documents which mention "shinobi", but shinobi doesn't really mean ninja... does it? Isn't it a generic term used to refer to any covert operative. Any warrior who dressed in the uniform of the enemy and infiltrated their castle to cause confusion prior to an attack was referred to as a shinobi, right? Could they all have secretly practiced ninjutsu? The term used to refer to the mountain dwelling clans of Iga and Koga was usually "shinobi no mono", and these people do not seem to appear in any documentation prior to the Edo period... at least none that I have seen.


Is this all because of the ninja's need for secrecy due to the fact that they existed outside of the established social hierarchy, and were persecuted for it... but even if they themselves rejected record-keeping, the rest of the country was crazy about it. You would think if they had been around for that long, some samurai, or magestrate somewhere would have made mention of them.


Some say that anywhere you see mention of the Shinobi, Kusa, Kamari, Suppa, Rappa, Toppa/Tsuppa, Denuki, Ukamibito, Homan, etc. you''re seeing mention of early ninja, but did they really practice ninjutsu like the clans of the Iga and Koga regions? Was Ninpo around in some form or another before that period?


I've heard stories of how, and when ninpo was originally developed, and the general concensus seems to be that it was long before the Edo period... What's the real story, I know someone here knows.... Don?

And not that I'd have to ask anyone on this board, but I'd appreciate if you let me know whether or not I've got any facts crossed.

[Don Roley]

Define "Ninjutsu."

I am not trying to be difficult, the answer to your question really depends on just how exact your definition is.

To some, espionage would be called ninjutsu. Every culture has had cases of people dressing up in disguise to spy on others before written records. Japan is no exception.

The Iga and Koga region seem to have had a reputation as areas that produced specialists in gathering information and entering by stealth by at least the end of the 15th century. The question of how long before that they did the job to get that rep is still under debate.

And I can not honestly say that I know for certain that the tradition of the Togakure ryu was devoted to stealth prior to that point. Daisuke Nishina was a real person. He was trained as a high ranking bushi and fought as such. I do not know of any record of him using stealth and can't bet that maybe the stealth aspects and stories about them were added in later in the way that legends tend to form.

The definition of ninjutsu that I use is taken from the Bansenshukai written in the 17th century after the heyday of ninjutsu had past. So you can see why I am kind of loath to give an exact date and ask again what your definition is.

I hope that helps in my non- helpfull way.

[Mikey Triangles]

Defining ninjutsu here is harder then it should be. I don't want define it exactly the way it was at the end of the 15th century, but I don't want to give so loose a definition that the Kan of ancient China are included... or could they have been the pioneers? I've heard that before also.

[Nin]

I don't think anyone can really point the creation time of the Ninjutsu (or at least its first "form"). Some also say it has been imported from Chinese militaries living in Japan a while before people started talking about it. (I'm too lazy to write long or post links sorry!)

[heretic888]

How long has ninjutsu truely existed? Is ninjutsu the oldest form of Budo... if not then what is?

I'd go with Don on this. Clarify what you mean by "ninjutsu".

Let's change gears for a moment and pretend you're talking about, say, "bojutsu" here. Do you consider it "bojutsu" when its just anybody in Japanese history that picks up a long staff and swings it at someone else? Or, do you only consider it "bojutsu" when there's at least partial evidence of some kind of semi-formal system of knowledge concerning Japanese staff-fighting being passed on from person to person??

Now, personally, I'd go with the latter, whether we're talking about "ninjutsu" or "bojutsu". But the point remains that there's a fairly substantial difference between the two definitions.

I've heard there is secondary documentation of a grappling art that existed in Japan in the 8th century, and that there is documentation of the formation of various styles of jujutsu being formed in the 12th century, and primary documentation of a jujutsu school being founded in the 16th century

No offense, but I wouldn't put much stock in claims of "jujutsu" schools having documentation to the 1100's, or even the 1500's. If so, it would be an unprecedented find. Katori Shinto ryu is supposed to be the earliest school that can back itself up with documentation, and even it dates no earlier than the mid-1500's.

... but I haven't seen any mention of ninpo, ninjutsu, or the ninja in any documentation until during the Edo period (17th to 19th centuries).

References to skills like stealth, espionage, disguise, and infiltration are very old in Japanese culture. The first emperor, Jimmu Tenno, is supposed to have made use of individuals that used such skills. There is also the mythical story of Prince Yamato Takeru disguising himself as a woman and then dispatching the Kumaso Takeru brothers with a hidden sword (recorded in the Kojiki).

Perhaps the earliest mention of such skills that does not rest on myths would be some special retainers employed by Prince Shotoku Taishi in the 7th century CE. Supposedly, these individuals were referred to as shinobi, but the spelling used different kanji than those used in later works like the Bansenshukai (i.e., no "blade" over "heart" here).

There are also famous warriors like Minamoto Yoshitsune (12th century CE) and Kusunoki Masashige (14th century CE), who are sometimes associated with "ninjutsu" due to their use of guerilla tactics and surprise attacks. There is also the Minamoto ally Ise Saburo no Yoshimori (12th century CE), who is supposed to have been from Iga.

But, even from all the above, you're just talking about rather unique individuals. There is no evidence indicating any of them were part of some special "tradition", "school", or "organization". In other words, we're talking about individuals that developed such skills independently and not organized groups like we see in Iga and Koga during the Sengoku Jidai.

It is my understanding the earliest written reference that identifies the "ninja" as a specific group (as opposed to random individuals) comes from the Nochi Kagami, an Ashikaga historical record from the Muromachi Jidai: "Concerning shinobi no mono, they are said to be from Iga and Koga and went freely into enemy castles secretly. They saw hidden things and were considered allies. Strategists call them kagimono hiki."

In Turnbull's The Lone Samurai and the Martial Arts, he cites a journal entry from a 16th century monk in which mention is made of an act of arson committed by the Iga-shu. There are also references to the "ninja" in the Iranki, a document recording Oda Nobuo's botched invasion of Iga Province, which Turnbull cites at length in his books on "ninja".

Is there just a mass confusion caused by several Asuka period documents which mention "shinobi", but shinobi doesn't really mean ninja... does it? Isn't it a generic term used to refer to any covert operative. Any warrior who dressed in the uniform of the enemy and infiltrated their castle to cause confusion prior to an attack was referred to as a shinobi, right? Could they all have secretly practiced ninjutsu?

From Turnbull's The Lone Samurai and the Martial Arts:

"Sasama distinguishes between the expert shinobi, who passed on their traditions to their descendents, of which the Iga-shu are the best example, and others who were no more than bandits, hired temporarily as kancho. He adds that shinobi were time and again misunderstood and mistrusted by their own allies, and that shinobi techniques were perceived as no more than theft. However, when taken along with an army shinobi were treated as personal attendants serving in an expert occupation. Finally, as the Tokugawa had rules for just about everything in life, it is not surprising to find regulations covering the use of such persons. In 1649, in the bakufu's laws for military service, only those of 10,000 koku and above were allowed to be accompanied by shinobi when they went to war."

The term used to refer to the mountain dwelling clans of Iga and Koga was usually "shinobi no mono", and these people do not seem to appear in any documentation prior to the Edo period... at least none that I have seen.

Sorry, but this is mistaken.

Is this all because of the ninja's need for secrecy due to the fact that they existed outside of the established social hierarchy, and were persecuted for it...

If you're talking about the Iga and Koga groups, they weren't "outside of the established social hierarchy" and "persecuted". The majority of them were samurai, or at least jizamurai. In fact, it is my understanding that the laws of the Iga Sokoku Ikki were set up so that any ashigaru that distinguished himself would be given samurai status. As fluid as class distinctions were during the Sengoku Jidai, they seem to have been even moreso in Iga.

On that note, the families that are typically recognized for being famous "ninja" (such as the Hattori and Momochi) seemed to have had very high status, being the equivalents of minor daimyo.

... but even if they themselves rejected record-keeping, the rest of the country was crazy about it. You would think if they had been around for that long, some samurai, or magestrate somewhere would have made mention of them.

Again, there is mention of them.

Laterz.

[Don Roley]

Some also say it has been imported from Chinese militaries living in Japan a while before people started talking about it. (I'm too lazy to write long or post links sorry!)

I have yet to see any evidence that the skills used by the ninja came from China. Chinese people did make the move to Japan, some of them military. But the skills of the ninja seemed to evolve and develop in Japan to an extent that it is totally a Japanese art.

And as a ballpark guess, I would say that the ninja were a group of people fighting to at least the 12th century- but they did not develop into the information and stealth specialists until the 14th century or so. This is just based on some things at history I know of that seem to hint at it and not hard evidence.

[heretic888]

I have yet to see any evidence that the skills used by the ninja came from China. Chinese people did make the move to Japan, some of them military. But the skills of the ninja seemed to evolve and develop in Japan to an extent that it is totally a Japanese art.

But, Don, what about the infamous lin kieu??

.... sorry, couldn't help myself. *grin*

And as a ballpark guess, I would say that the ninja were a group of people fighting to at least the 12th century- but they did not develop into the information and stealth specialists until the 14th century or so. This is just based on some things at history I know of that seem to hint at it and not hard evidence.

Don, its my understanding that the people of Iga didn't organize themselves into an independent ikki until sometime shortly after the Kamakura Jidai. Is this true?

Laterz.

[Nin]

I have yet to see any evidence that the skills used by the ninja came from China.

I have yet to see any evidence that the principle (the Ninjutsu wasn't originally a martial art like Judo or even Kung-Fu but more like a "way of life" or "philosophy" etc... depending on the side you see it) didn't came from China.

There are many points of views actually. But a lot point out that a lot of Chinese warriors/monks or even philosophers fleed China to Japan after the end of the T'ang dinasty. These "refugees" had a lot of influence on Japanese people. Of course Chinese didn't invent Ninjutsu as we see it now, but they more likely influenced a lot by several techniques/ideas etc... unknown to Japanese.
Then Japanese simply "took it and improved it" over the centuries.

Of course that is ONE of the MANY opinions. Plus the fact is that there are almost no known "proof" supporting 100% any theory. That only confirms that the art of Ninjutsu is one of the oldest art that continue to survive and evolve (evolution/adaptation is one of its principles)...

[Don Roley]

Don, its my understanding that the people of Iga didn't organize themselves into an independent ikki until sometime shortly after the Kamakura Jidai. Is this true?

As far back as the time when most of Iga was a shoen for Todaji it seems that the residents were a rather onry bunch. The local sport seemed to be geeking the guys Todaiji left in charge. There are a lot of records from the Kamakura Bakufu on the problems in the area.

[Mikey Triangles]

Thanks guys. I guess I have to do some more reading to do... and Heretic, when you said I was mistaken did you mean that there is mention of Shinobi no Mono prior to the Edo period?

Where could I find a good book or two? ... I've done a lot of my reading on-line and therefore I'm not sure how reliable some of my sources are.

[Don Roley]

Where could I find a good book or two? ... I've done a lot of my reading on-line and therefore I'm not sure how reliable some of my sources are.

Hell, there is not much. I got much of what I know from Japanese sources and sources outside of what most people would consider 'ninjutus.' The stuff about Shoen for example.

There really is not one good book that takes someone with little experience in Japanese history and brings them to a level where they can understand the whole picture. Such books would be beaten to death in terms of sales to those claiming to teach how to give delayed death touches.

Some people have tried to convince me to write one, but I do not really see the need at this point. Would your training change one bit if you learned just how old ninjutsu as a formal system is? The one big benifit of knowing history seems to be telling that Saito ryu, Sato ryu, etc are fake and not to be treated as ninjutsu. If you guys already know that, then the biggest thing you can do to help understand the art is to do things like try to wear Japanese armor, walk in a 600 year old Japanese house, observe the lay of the land at a lot of Japanese battles. All those will help you understand the physical aspects of the art and can't be transmitted by the written word.

Sorry if I sound like a pain in the behind. But I really feel that experiencing things like wearing armor is more important than knowing the lists of heads of the ryuha and knowing exact dates.

[bushijon]

Here it goes there is an arabic book on military tactics written I want to say around 10th or 11th cent. The book goes into great detail about stealth and elimination of the enemy by mean of leadership. With in the book it talks about training other peoples in the art of warfare. Maybe the art of stealth was learned from another culture.

[heretic888]

As far back as the time when most of Iga was a shoen for Todaji it seems that the residents were a rather onry bunch. The local sport seemed to be geeking the guys Todaiji left in charge. There are a lot of records from the Kamakura Bakufu on the problems in the area.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification.

[heretic888]

... and Heretic, when you said I was mistaken did you mean that there is mention of Shinobi no Mono prior to the Edo period?

Yes, there is --- no matter which of the two definitions you are using.

References to warriors that used stealth and deception go way back in Japanese culture, all the way back to Prince Yamato's heroics in the Kojiki. I have heard there were ninjutsu ryu named after Minamoto Yoshitsune and Kusunoki Masashige, as well. That may indicate something, as both warriors were reknowned for their use of subterfuge and guerilla tactics.

Even if you had the narrow definition of the samurai of the Iga-shu and Koga-shu in mind, there are still pre-Edo references to them. The Nochi Kagami, the Iranki, and the journal entry I mentioned before all date to before or during the 16th century. Turnbull cites them all (with direct excerpts) in his books related to the subject.

Take in mind, however, that a good deal of "history" was transmitted by word-of-mouth. It is probably a mistake to only include written documents here. At the same time, however, you shouldn't treat oral legends as if they're verified "facts", either.

Also, as a minor point of clarification, I wouldn't treat any real dichotomy between "ninja" and "shinobi-no-mono" with any degree of seriousness. "Ninja" is just an alternate pronounciation of the same kanji. My understanding is this particular pronounciation originated sometime during the Meiji Jidai.

Where could I find a good book or two? ... I've done a lot of my reading on-line and therefore I'm not sure how reliable some of my sources are.

While Turnbull's personal interpretations of the "ninja" and their history may be questionable, his books are very good in that he provides several direct citations of primary sources from the period. If you have a somewhat decent understanding of Japanese history and culture as a whole, you should be able to pick up bits and pieces of useful information from the primary sources he references.

Also, if you haven't read Don's article on the Koga ryu I'd suggest doing so.

Laterz.

[heretic888]

Here it goes there is an arabic book on military tactics written I want to say around 10th or 11th cent. The book goes into great detail about stealth and elimination of the enemy by mean of leadership. With in the book it talks about training other peoples in the art of warfare. Maybe the art of stealth was learned from another culture.

Careful there, man. You're just a step away from Sojobow's use of "history".

Laterz.

[The Nephilim]

And what is wrong with Sojobow and his history?







Mind you, what is right with it is the main problem.

[Dale Seago]

Here it goes there is an arabic book on military tactics written I want to say around 10th or 11th cent. The book goes into great detail about stealth and elimination of the enemy by mean of leadership. With in the book it talks about training other peoples in the art of warfare. Maybe the art of stealth was learned from another culture.

End of the 11th century is when the Hashashin were established in Persia by Hassan ibn al-Sabbah, and they became powerful in what is now Syria and Iraq as well.

Of course, that's it! When their fortress at Alamut was destroyed in 1256 by the Mongols under Hulagu Khan, some fleeing survivors ended up in Japan. . .

[Nin]

Here it goes there is an arabic book on military tactics written I want to say around 10th or 11th cent. The book goes into great detail about stealth and elimination of the enemy by mean of leadership. With in the book it talks about training other peoples in the art of warfare. Maybe the art of stealth was learned from another culture.

The idea of "elite" soldiers specialized into stealth, blending into a population, trained on war tactics, combat arts, medicine or others arts etc... Is much older than the 10th century. But I doubt of it being the origin of the Ninjutsu. Several people all around the world already had such techniques, more or less developped but it already existed a while ago.

Now I think the question is what people consider the creation of what we call today Ninjutsu? When it became a "true" art or its very first beggining? Because if that's the beggining then I suppose none of use will be able to really prove will solid facts his claims of the creation date.

[heretic888]

And what is wrong with Sojobow and his history?

You mean the part about a fully-organized Koga shinobi group in the 1100's (yeah, I'm sure the Minamoto would'a provided a lot of business for espionage and covert ops )?? Or, the part about Korean "ninja" working for the Tokugawa?? Or, the existence of unbroken "ninja" clans in the Chinese forest?? Or, my personal favorite, mixing up the jizamurai with the eta??

Nope. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[heretic888]

Of course, that's it! When their fortress at Alamut was destroyed in 1256 by the Mongols under Hulagu Khan, some fleeing survivors ended up in Japan. . .

Yes, mystery solved!!

Now that that's out of the way, we just have to track down the mysterious Illuminati Brotherhood before they take over the world!!