what is the one inch punch?

[Bugeisha]

Josh- that's a good set of definitions from a standpoint of basic physics, but I don't think that's how Dan meant "internal/external" power generation. I'm interested to know what he finds the difference to be, and what he means by "real power generation."

[Dan Harden]

Dillon

The internal aspects of these arts are not generally known or practiced-but they are and remain the best potential for power from our bodies. In general it involves you being relaxed and not flexing major muscle groups, the ground, your legs, your hips, diaphragm and breathing patterns, your spine and your mind. Lest I forget- then years of training. Although you can do tricks with internal power; both receiving and giving- and I will be the first to admit I have had my share of fun letting people try to lock me or throw me as I just stand there looking at them- it is highly practical for balance in any endeavor and potent for fighting in any means or art you care to use it in; Judo, Aikido, Karate, jujutsu, whatever. Though a combination of grappling and hitting seems ideal to me.
While many people eschew the internal arts as esoteric and rather heady they are absolutely at the heart of everything most young people were drawn to in these arts in the first place-immovable power and mystery. The mystery as it turns out is just more hard work. Work that can be done alone-but almost no one does it, therefore almost no one gets it. What I will say is that having felt it and then years and years later being able to use it, I would never go back to training without it. Virtually everything else can benefit from it; any art.
For that reason and to borrow from Josh’s long meandering diatribe -it can be formless and the kinesiology may not be readily apparent but it is there and can be taught. I couldn’t finish Josh's lengthy extrapolation-I kept falling asleep-but on the surface I found it meaningless for what I do as compared to external movement.
Within the instant of touch you know whether or not someone knows it- instantly.
So Josh, can you feel light and then can you feel heavy then light again at will?
Can I have two men push you and pull you while you stand there unmoved?
Only internal training will afford this in a person.

Dillon I don’t teach over the net. So that’s about all I will say. I was told that the Chinese arts have it. But from reading and meeting some folks it appears only a few do the work in those arts as well.
I was just re-reading a book written before the war but published after the war due to its controversial title during that altercation and Japans dismal display of Bushido in it. I think it was published in 1955. It is called “The fighting spirit of Japan.” In it, a judoka writes of training with this 6th dan who could, at will, either play Judo and use tai sabaki or in an instant decide to be unthrowable using internal power. When asked –our intrepid writer is told- that only a very few men in Japan knew of this power. He asked if he could meet someone else and he was then introduced to another man-a Mr. Kunishige. He proceeded to push, pull, yank, choke and punch Mr. Kunishige , even pulling his ears to no avail whatsoever. While Mr. khishage could push him over with one finger.
When you combine this with many other references given in books down through the ages you realize the “power” was there. Curious that in every reference offered it is clear how rare it was then.....as it is now.

Cheers
Dan

[Bugeisha]

Dan,
First, let me thank you for the reply. I certainly understand your position on teaching over the internet, so I appreciate that you said as much as you did. I don't really have the brain power to reply intelligently right now, but I'll be back when I do.

[Yang Wei Xin]

Sorry dan, wasn't trying to upset you, a question was asked, i looked it up and posted my findings, they are not my words, but the words of a physics expert.

I didn't make any claims in my post as to my ability to control jing or chi, just stated some basic info on them.

I am not a master and don't claim to be, however i do practice tai chi and chi qong regualarly.

Internal does not exist without external, and vice versa, its yin and yang theory, that is why they put a little female with the male, and a little male with the female, they cant exist on their own.

[Peter Rehse]

Dan what happened to your posts over at e-budo?

[jwinch2]

i was just paraphrasing Lee. he found the western preoccuption to work biceps and the chest a waste of time. the back and forearms are for combat. the other ones, obviously are necessary, but not as important, in Lee's opinion.

In this case Lee was dead wrong. The back doesn't have anything to do with punching forward and everything to do with the chest, shoulders, and triceps. He was though, right about biceps brachii.

[jwinch2]

Guys

The punch is not a punch. The more you think it is -the less it will be. The force is in your body. Your arms and forearms and chest have nothing to do with it. Think of your spine, your legs and the ground.
What on earth are you guys into mentioning muscles and tings like that.

Whether or not it is in tai chi? I will say this.
I was taught how to use my body in ways exactly like the CMA from a Japanese art. This included what we called an aiki-punch. Delivered from no inch...to ...whatever inch. I showed this to a CMA fellow but he could not manage to do it until we trained together at it. After some months of him practicing he suddenly "got it" and drilled me into the ground. While it was not excellent, in time, it will be.
Power generation is paramount in the CMA, is it not? it is formelss is it not?
Stop thinking about muscle work. I have a small guy who could nail you like nobodies business. I am large, 6' with plenty of muscle. So if he can do what I do where does that leave the muscle theory. I also have great difficulty pushing him-he can trap my energy and drop me. I donlt think I will be tellig him to use his muscle anytime soon.

cheers
Dan

At the risk of being a jackass, that might be the worst take I have read on here in a while. Muscles produce force period. Without muscle contraction force cannot be applied to anything by the human body. As for your take that power generation is important in CMA. I agree. It would be better however if you understood that power is equal to the cross product of force and velocity. If you do not produce force, you have no power.

[jwinch2]

Unless you're relying on the momentum of your hand (not a great plan given the small mass of most peoples' hands) for a strike, the real power of a strike is in the moment where the coordination of the whole body transfers through the hand to the target. In my experience, this largely happens in the final "snap" of a technique, which takes hardly any time at all.

The mechanical principle you are referring to is called impulse. This whole argument boils down to understaning the relationship between impulse which loosely put is how much force you can produce over a set amount of contact time and momentum which is a product of mass and velocity.

Great posts Dillon! Way to root all of the mumbojumbo!

Jason

[Dan Harden]

Well Jason I have only this to say
I said that the body is the force. Primarily the using the ground, the legs, and the spine and not the arms and chest. This I still maintain.
And while we're at it..... Lee? Was right about the back over the chest and legs.

If I can have you stand there with my arm out and touching your chest and I do not chamber and I do not hip snap and I use my back and breathing and you are thrown back..... tell me how I do it?
And as for foward force. How about if I stand with my arms extended you grab me and push as hard as you can and I remain standing- that would require a resistive force-forward- to stop you.
But if I do not flex deltiods triceps, biceps, or pectorals how is it happening?

I am delighted to find out there are guys in the CMA as well who could tell you in an instant....with no hesitation-not that they will either, and apparently many who can't also. I was surprised to see this deep knowledge in the Chinese arts. I had not seen it anywhere else but in one Japanese art. But after further research it appears it is as rare there as it is in the Japanese arts as well.

At the end of the day I think everyone needs to be honest with themselves and the depth of their abilities and knowledge. Long extrapolations and a lengthy treatise is a way to obscure what people do not know and can not do. It can be described in just a few sentences.


Peter
I just checked E-budo and my posts are intact; recent and old.


Cheers
Dan

[jwinch2]

Well Jason I have only this to say
I said that the body is the force. Primarily the using the ground, the legs, and the spine and not the arms and chest. This I still maintain.

You are correct in the fact that you can and do use your legs to transmit force onto another object. However you are incorrect if you belive that you are not using your chest or arms during a punch.

And while we're at it..... Lee? Was right about the back over the chest and legs.

nope, Lee was wrong. The only the back would be involved in pulling the punch away but when it is extended, he was using the chest , anterior deltiods, and triceps brachii. You see, a muscle always pulls it never pushes. I have seen Lee's video of him doing this. He was using his chest. Whether he thought he was or not is another manner.

But if I do not flex deltiods triceps, biceps, or pectorals how is it happening?

It depends on how you are standing. If you stand straight up with your arms extended as you described earlier with the weight/strength disadvantage you described in earlier posts and I push you, you are going backwards.

If you stand in some sort of lunge position with your arms out, and you resist, you are indeed using your triceps, pectorals, and deltoids but not your biceps brachii. You are also using your legs, abs and other supporting muscles at that point. If that is indeed your stance in this situation, it is much more of a function of physics then of any sort of mystical ability. Football players can keep from getting pushed around also, but they don't have any sort of profound ability, they have simply been taught proper techniqe, the function of leverage, and trained to be strong, and selected because they were bigger than most other people.

[Dan Harden]

It depends on how you are standing. If you stand straight up with your arms extended as you described earlier with the weight/strength disadvantage you described in earlier posts and I push you, you are going backwards.

....it is much more of a function of physics then of any sort of mystical ability. Football players can keep from getting pushed around also, but they don't have any sort of profound ability, they have simply been taught proper techniqe, the function of leverage, and trained to be strong, and selected because they were bigger than most other people.




Jason
You are talking about what you know.....muscle strength and size and training. Thats fine. I am talking about something beyond that.and it is physics and applied mechanics as well. It is not mystical. Well mystical looking but since there are hundreds of people; Japanese,Chinese, whatever doing- it begs the question of you simply not knowing it.
I have a 160 lb. guy you can push on....I've watched a 270 pound (your proverbial football player you mentioned) try to push him over- to no avail.
But your reasoning; with muscle strength, force vectors, mass and velocity and with muscles pulling not pushing is correct........ and doesn't have a thing to do with this.

The CMA guys were right. These internal skills are not commonly known even in these "internal" arts. I am truly saddened.
I'll let it go. I've no wish to debate. I am happy you know what you know and are convinced of it.


Dan

[Sochin]

Jason sed:

You are correct in the fact that you can and do use your legs to transmit force onto another object. However you are incorrect if you belive that you are not using your chest or arms during a punch

Simplistically, internal power theory says that you only have enough tension in your arms and chest muscles to keep your alignment and structure, and no upper body muscle strength, power or tension is used to fight with.

[jwinch2]

Jason sed:


Simplistically, internal power theory says that you only have enough tension in your arms and chest muscles to keep your alignment and structure, and no upper body muscle strength, power or tension is used to fight with.

If your humorous is flexed and your elbow is extending, you are actively contracting your chest, shoulders, and triceps. Otherwise, such movement is impossible.

Secondly, internal power is an oxymoran. Power is force x velocity. Velocity is displacement / time. If you have no displacement, then your power = zero. In short, no movement = no power.

[GodofGamblers]

Keep this going, gentlemen; it's getting interesting. It is rare that I stumble into a discussion like this where a subject can be discussed in depth without resorting to anger or insult. My hat is off to you all...

As for me, i have always been convinced that the back is used in the punch. Your back (rhomboids?) is the motor for the pistons which are the arm.

Wouldn't biceps be 'brakes' on a punch? the arm shouldn't be flexed when a punch is thrown... There is only tension on impact. Obviously, arm strength is required to actually throw the punch, but working the triceps, chest and biceps won't improve your punching power, will it?

[jwinch2]

Keep this going, gentlemen; it's getting interesting. It is rare that I stumble into a discussion like this where a subject can be discussed in depth without resorting to anger or insult. My hat is off to you all...

As for me, i have always been convinced that the back is used in the punch. Your back (rhomboids?) is the motor for the pistons which are the arm.

Wouldn't biceps be 'brakes' on a punch? the arm shouldn't be flexed when a punch is thrown... There is only tension on impact. Obviously, arm strength is required to actually throw the punch, but working the triceps, chest and biceps won't improve your punching power, will it?

The back and specifically the rhomboids have absolutely nothing to do with punching. Muscles do not push, they only pull. That is why it is called contraction when muscles are activated. The ONLY two functions of the rhomboids group are to retract the scapula and in continuing action, pull the humorous. Answer this question: If I asked you how you trained your rhomboids what would you answer? Probably seated rows, DB rows, reverse flys and that sort of thing. Why? Because that is the action that they perform. The do not push the arm forward in anyway under any condition.

The same thing goes for the latissumus dorsi muscle or the "lats" as people have been calling them on this thread. If you wanted to work your lats, you would perform pullups, or lat pulls of some kind. Why? Because that is their function. The only two movements that the lats contribute to are shoulder girdle depression and pulling of the humorous down and back. They do not push the arm forward in anyway.

The biceps brachii has two functions, elbow flexion and supination of the forarm. Neither of which has anything to do with punching.

The muscles that do have something to do with the arm going forward are pectoralis major and minor, the anterior deltoid, and the triceps brachii.

Now, if you want to talk about bringing your arm back from a punch to get ready for the next one then the rhomboids, lats, traps, and biceps would all be part of the game. However, none of those muscles have the slightest thing to do with the actual punch itself.

[Jason T Gatts]

Are we only talking about jabs and crosses? It seems like the biceps would have a bit to do with hooks and uppercuts.

[jwinch2]

Are we only talking about jabs and crosses? It seems like the biceps would have a bit to do with hooks and uppercuts.

Excellent point! For the purposes of this discussion I believe we have been talking about jabs and the like. During an uppercut or hook, you would definately add the biceps into the mix and remove the triceps. The chest and shoulders would still be involved as the major players and the back would still have nothing to do with anything.

Great post Jason!

[Jason T Gatts]

What does the one inch punch consist of is is chi or being very strong or what? i know bruce lee demonstrated it. and in several books and articles on it i read that u just have to practice it? how do i do that ?like in killbill???

Not to be argumentative (just bored) but I always thought that the 1 inch punch was a gimmick the Lee did for demonstrations - you hold your fist 1 inch away from a board and without first moving the fist backwards you punch through the board. I tried this when I was young and figured that if a 16 yrs old green belt in Tae Kwon Do can do it it's not that big of a deal.

But since we're on the subject I was wondering - if you move from a slightly hunched over position to a fully upright position or even leaning slightly back when executing an uppercut, are you then using your back? If that is the case then maybe that's what some of these CMA practiioners are talking about. It seems to me (only from watching) that some Wing Chun stylists pull their right shoulder back when twisting and punching with the left arm.
Just a thought.

[Gene Williams]

The "one inch punch," as it is popularly called, is not a gimmick. But, it is not some magical secret, either. It has to do with years of training, developing an awareness of the hara, and proper breath control and relaxation. It can't be taught at a party or in the locker room to someone with no training. However, people with some years of training will often have a sudden "AHA!" experience with some simple instruction.

[Jason T Gatts]

Gene, I did not mean to offend.
Maybe I still don't fully understand just what this technique really is.
If we lived closer to each other or if I travelled more I would ask you for a demonstration.
Are there any clips out there or a good reference to read.