what is the one inch punch?

[Gene Williams]

I wasn't offended at all. I just wanted to point out some of the misunderstandings about this concept. It really isn't something you can get from clips or books. It just comes with time and proper training. I don't really know how to explain it any better than Mr. Harden tried to do above.

[Bugeisha]

Ted- what you're talking about is the sort of thing I had come to understand with the "relaxation" of the muscles in the arm and chest. They're used enough to support and maintain the structure necessary to transmitt the power that is primarily generated in the legs, kua, and "waist."

That said, I certainly use my arm and chest muscles when I punch. Otherwise my arms would just hang limp at my sides.

I also agree that this sort of thing isn't really able to be "gotten" over the internet. Otherwise we would have no need for the dojo, eh? I just thought it made for interesting discussion.

[Sochin]

I think maybe I am out of my depth here...

Secondly, internal power is an oxymoran. Power is force x velocity. Velocity is displacement / time. If you have no displacement, then your power = zero. In short, no movement = no power.

Yes, but,

but,

if I twist my waist so my shoulder goes forward, and my hand is up and pointing forward, it too will move forward. Not because I tense or use any arm / chest muscles but because of my waist turn.

So if you are trying to hold my hand in place and I use my legs, and only enough tension in the arm so it doesn't fold or lose place, then the power you feel will be not arm power (though it moved) but leg power, neh?

Power generated this way, in the legs and by opening and closing the qua can thus be felt in the hands and can be very fast and very strong.

This is the meaning of internal power, power generated in the legs, qua, and waist but not in the muscles of the limbs.

And so your oxymoron finds the light...

[Dan Harden]

The problem with discussig this is that people become to litteral. If you say "Relax"
The smartalecs say... "If I totally relax I will fall down."
If you say "Don't use your arm muscles"
You get..... "Then my arm will not stay up."
In person you just do things to them. When they are at a loss for words to explain it, and they cannot do it. The good ones ask and learn
The smartalecs go home convinced.... and learn nothing.
I suspect its always been this way.

On the net it is just better to hint at the training and that it exists. It will draw those that may be serious enough to learn, and it will keep out those that take up bandwidth and floor space with nothing to say or offer.

I have been reading through my library for a blog. I came across a reference to a judo guy who knew internal power. He separated it from his normal judo. When he used internal strength he could not be thrown. When asked if others in Japan knew this, he said "Very few." This American was brought to one other guy who let him him choke him, punch him, and try to push him over. Then he pushed the American with one finger. I assume others here know what he was doing, so do I. There are dozens of references in various books; not one of which discussed size and muscle strength, vector force, and momentum. What they all DID say was that it is a rare skill and that few know it. I am delighted it is still that way. Hard work is hard work...earned. Internal training will otherwise become the "new jujutsu or MMA fad, with more suburban white boys half-assedly practicing more of the finest stuff on the planet and with teachers and videos springing up all over the place.

Internal skills are physical and applied mechanics. The opening and closing (Chinese terminology for a skill I learned in Japanese arts) when used in grappling can have profound effects that are hard to read for an opponent until they fall down. I have my own theories as to why the breath-power works-outside of the obvious with the diaphragm- to enhance various aspects.

cheers
Dan

[jwinch2]

I think maybe I am out of my depth here...



Yes, but,

but,

if I twist my waist so my shoulder goes forward, and my hand is up and pointing forward, it too will move forward. Not because I tense or use any arm / chest muscles but because of my waist turn.

So if you are trying to hold my hand in place and I use my legs, and only enough tension in the arm so it doesn't fold or lose place, then the power you feel will be not arm power (though it moved) but leg power, neh?

Power generated this way, in the legs and by opening and closing the qua can thus be felt in the hands and can be very fast and very strong.

This is the meaning of internal power, power generated in the legs, qua, and waist but not in the muscles of the limbs.

And so your oxymoron finds the light...

Ted,

What you are referring to is called torsion. Torsion is rotation around a longitudinal axis. This occurs through a contraction of the transverse abdominus and the external obliques. The hips and legs would provide the stable base for this power to be generated but are not actively participating in the movement. In this situation, you would still be relying on your chest, shoulders, and triceps rather than your back.

Good discussion!

Jason

[Bugeisha]

Good post, Jason! Thank you for your input!

I think the teminology commonly used in this sort of situation makes it difficult to discuss, as any topic will be difficult to discuss when the people in the discussion are moving from different paradigms. For example, as Dan was saying, "relax" isn't necessarily the right word, it's just the closest english language approximation. I believe he is referring to "song/sung" in Chinese (I'm not familiar with the Japanese term) and it means as state of being loose but strong. Not rigid, but not limp.

Jason, what are the muscles immediatly around the spine? Not necessarily the ones on the back, but the muscles around the spine on the inside of the body? Can those muscles be used for torsion? That is, can you turn/twist the torso using the muscles surrounding the spine? I'll see if I can find my anatomy books and get the names of the muscles I mean.

[Sochin]

Torsion is rotation around a longitudinal axis. This occurs through a contraction of the transverse abdominus and the external obliques.

Ok, I see that,

but,

Master Chen talks about rotating different parts of the body in same and different directions all at the same time, far from the muscles you mention He lets us feel his muscles as he does this and it is very strange.

It is the same idea as in your quote but much more complicated with all kinds of rotations happening,

which is why we joke, "We only do one thing: rotate!"

[jwinch2]

Ok, I see that,

but,

Master Chen talks about rotating different parts of the body in same and different directions all at the same time, far from the muscles you mention He lets us feel his muscles as he does this and it is very strange.

It is the same idea as in your quote but much more complicated with all kinds of rotations happening,

which is why we joke, "We only do one thing: rotate!"

This not an unusual idea Ted. The entire body moves on angular or torsional movement. There is no such thing as linear movement withing the human body itself. Every movement is related to a fixed joint...

As for feeling muscles and thus trying to determine activation. Don't confuse activation with contraction. The muscles such as the biceps can contract and at the same time the triceps may activate to small degree due to a response from various proprioceptors withing the muscle and tendon. This is commonly called cocontraction within the scientific community. Over time, with training this phenomenon is reduced but probably never all together gone unless you are at the elite athlete level.

The take home message is, muscle can be activated without actively contributing to a particuar movement.

[Gene Williams]

Well, folks, it is easier to practice your way to it than it is to talk your way to it.

[Dan Harden]

With the movement Ted is talking about you can have someone try to throw you and you can basically just stand there looking at them and then throw them. More than muscle though you can acitvate fascia this way and with breathing It is a VERY confusing feel to people playing with you. Think of like pushing on a slipping sliding surface over steel or a rock. Took me years and I have years to go.
As for rotationin a single plane; foward or back: Think of a train with the wheels pumping the long arm.
1. a circle can push a line straight.
b. a straight line can make the opponents body recieve and activate "itself" in a circular way. Just like with the kids game stick and hoop. THeir body acts as the hoop.

Now, there are far better uses for moving in all direction than that one plane-but it gives an idea.
At the end of the day all I care about the exact science of it as that it is very hard to damn near impossible to throw me and I can throw poeple rather easily. Works for lots of other interesting things as well from punches to chokes to being unlockable. I've had an engineer and one math prof. and two med students... as students. They can't explain it either.... but they can do it to various degrees.
I've met only two men who can do this well. I am sure there are more...just haven't met em yet.
cheers
Dan

[Bugeisha]

Well, folks, it is easier to practice your way to it than it is to talk your way to it.

Always cutting back to the heart of the matter, eh Gene?

[Peter Rehse]

Peter
I just checked E-budo and my posts are intact; recent and old.

Appologies Dan - I was confused between two threads on different boards with the same title. My bad and all is fine.

[Rasputin]

At the end of the day all I care about the exact science of it as that it is very hard to damn near impossible to throw me and I can throw poeple rather easily. Works for lots of other interesting things as well from punches to chokes to being unlockable. I've had an engineer and one math prof. and two med students... as students. They can't explain it either.... but they can do it to various degrees.

We DO have another Budoseek get-together planned for next year, you know. I am certain that the powers-that-be would LOVE an opportunity to see this in action. I know that I would.

Oh, and, just to throw my fly in the ointment, can you or anyone possibly come up with a scientific explanation for how one might "activate fascia"? I admit my curiousity is overwhelming.

[Dan Harden]

Yeah I can well imagine. But I am not alone, not by a long shot
I am used to the fact that I can't find it in Judo, jujutsu or aikido. When I started playing with CMA guys I found a common "language" with terminology that I had not previously used. Now, however I find the skills are just as rare with people lost in "forms" as well. Seems no one trains this in any large numbers. I have been lucky enough to get some names of guys who train it and I will be meeting them this year.

Guys
Lets not get crazy. This is not beyond you or anyone else. It has, and can be- taught. It is applied mechanics and while being ridiculously hard to learn-in that it takes alot of repitition, time and solo work or practice... it is just more hard work that brings about skill. Whoopy.
It is not "my art is better than yours." it is "Lets make all arts better." I will say this. I have not taught anyone who didn't say it was the best thing they learned from me. It is separate though from applied skill sets; throws, chokes, locks, boxng etc. It can be applied to anything.

History
I have references for this type of training from the American indians to India, to China to Japan. Odd that in all cases whenever internal training is referenced it is actually said -then and there- how it is a rare skill.
I just thought that here in the "internal arts forum" it would be ho hum shop talk.
If you read the same books.... what explanation do you have for those men encountering the same thing. They were judoka and wrestlers and Sumo guys who were very pragmatic and hands-on... like me. I have never been a granola crunchy chi searching hippy. I am more of a kick-*** and take names type. In my small world- if this type of training convinced me and the other guys like E.J. Harrison who came before me, maybe you should be a little more open to it. Granted I am not going to be wrist grabbing or wearing silk pajamas anytime soon. But the training behind it all can be used in a manner to fit....you too.

Fascia work and breathing
I'll leave that up to the guys who like to debate things they cannot do themselves to figure that out. When it was taught to me my teacher called it "long muscle" work. That is wrong too. But he is amazing and I don't care about the scientific explanation as much anyway- just the skill and effect. I've yet to hear a rational explanation for the breath work, yet it can felt and taught. I've heard "the feeling" described as soft steel, eraser on a steel rod, jello over granite, all kinds of things for when you hit someone with these types of skills or try to throw them-or they hit or throw you- it is how it feels. Why do poeple who are disimillar and do not know or train together have the same odd descriptions and have been talking about it for hundreds of years?

cheers
Dan

[Dan Harden]

Peter

I pulled them because that blog (which partly came about from a series of private discussions with the author) changed into something else from its intent. From discussions of history to..... how-to.
Giving details and teaching on the net is just ridiculous.
One fellow told me to "put up or shut up."
Good choice. I picked one.

Cheers
Dan

[Cliff Hargrave]

We DO have another Budoseek get-together planned for next year, you know. I am certain that the powers-that-be would LOVE an opportunity to see this in action. I know that I would.

I volunteer to test this.

[Karen Session]

Don't forget to get it on tape please.

[Sochin]

I've trained with Darren Laur - he's the LEO who studied hypnotism and has given us a fine critique of chi style knockouts as the power of suggestion. That's why they don't work on the uninitiated.

I've trained with Peyton Quinn who teaches light pressure knock-outs that are completely different. They work an anybody.

And I've trained with Joseph Chen. When he says, "Push me, harder." I know I'm expecting something but he never sets up my response by telling me ahead of time what to expect. He says "This is wrong." and pushes back a few times and then he says "This is right." and the feeling is quite different and very strong. I will be able to do this someday!

[jwinch2]

I volunteer to test this.

\

Booya!

[Dan Harden]

Gents
There are a few guys who are interested in "learning" these skills and where they may be able to apply them in their own training. I will be training with a few of those like minded souls. In the Chinese arts they at least know what you’re talking about even if it is not applied to MMA context. But then again The Japanese gentleman Akuzawa; is pursuing that venue as well.... as have I for that last fifteen years.
I had hoped to find like minded researchers in the internal arts forum. Oh well.

In the mean time.....
Ya know there is wisdom in nay-saying with cause. There is also a profound ignorance implied in turning up your nose at something you have not researched and that has centuries of precedent behind it.

I find this tag line quote interesting
There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance. Hippocrates (460 - 377 BC)
And I offer this in return
Having a (negative) opinion about a culture’s science you do not yet understand leaves you ignorant and them knowledgeable.

Cheers
Dan