What to do about:Tough Kids

[rockatear]

kmtsd,
I like the idea of Marcopolo's pairing them together and Eliz's having them do something useful and also addressing the class as a group about these types of problem and how such behavior is not tolerated.

My other thoughts is that this is probably a valuable lesson for the 16 year old in terms of learning patience, controlling his aggression and not "sweating the small stuff". Too, I can't imagine that taunting is accepted in any honorable school and the tough kid ought to be told to knock it off immediately. (But, as you say the situation has been handled.)

Got to agree that the "guy thing" runs high during the pre-teen and teen years. Lacking all else have the two students hold hands until they agree to get along. Worked for my boys .

with respect and some humor,

[sesshoumaru]

huh...let the black belt spar with him, if the black belt is good enough then he'll be able to defend himself from a stabbing. and if he does get stabbed tell the non blackbelt that he's expelled, because obviously he can't handle knowing something as dangerous as karate. or talk to him first and tell him that if he doesn't stop with what he's doing then he's going to have a very painful lesson learnt

[jjaje]

Ethan,

I appreciate you input but but your advice is not exactly the most professional thing to do. Studio owners and teachers should be above certain things.

[huunjin]

letting them spar will do nothing. The "tough" kid knows at least in his head he could take him with no rules, and maybe very well could. Sparring well does not mean much when reality hits. Lay down the rules and the true meaning of the arts. There is only so much you can do with it happening outside the dojo. The black belt needs to deal with this mostly on his own but some general announcments from you would certainly help. This is why we for one will not allow one to be a Black Belt at too early of an age. Maturity and wisdom means much more than raw talent in the long run.

[JiuJitsuRabbit]

huh...let the black belt spar with him, if the black belt is good enough then he'll be able to defend himself from a stabbing. and if he does get stabbed tell the non blackbelt that he's expelled, because obviously he can't handle knowing something as dangerous as karate. or talk to him first and tell him that if he doesn't stop with what he's doing then he's going to have a very painful lesson learnt

Too many Kung Fu movies? You should seriously reconsider this thought, before you get seriously injured. Just because you "know karate", it does not make you immune to damage.

[Musubi Dojo]

huh...let the black belt spar with him, if the black belt is good enough then he'll be able to defend himself from a stabbing.

This is the stupidest thing I've read this year.....

[David Craik]

Yes, that was pretty absurd. You show me an agressive kid with a knife and two or three months of FMA and I'll show you a kid that could defeat 80% of the black belts in the U.S.

[aplonis]

The outcome of a sparring match would most probably be totally non-sequitur as regards the issue at hand. It smacks of the pseudo-samurai bushido code-of-honor BS which I so thoroughly abhor. Just possibly the kid might win through some random fluke or whatever. Much stranger things have happend. And then where would you be?

Couldn't get away with any such theater of the absurd in our dojang. Not without acting totally counter to all of our own protestations of MA being primarily for self-defense.

Our limtus test is clear and simple. You don't get to pick the time and place when being attacked. You fight until their attack is defeated. Then you make haste to be away.

Also, afterwards you call the cops. Here in Michigan the cops have a litmus test of their own...the first party to call the cops is the one who wins the greatest benefit of doubt.

So if they pick a time and place, intend to hit first if given an opening, and do not intend to call the cops after...then it isn't self-defense. If your school encourages such an option, then you also are not teaching self-defense.

Gan Uesli Starling
Western Michigan Tae Kwon Do

[GRWMMAolddude]

Well, I didn't have to talk to the orange belt because apparently the owner and chief instructor beat me to it... I told him(the owner) what was going on... he basically told the orange belt to knock it off and spoke to him about respect etc. somehow in the conversation I became the "dump" as a tattle tale, but I guess that's Ok with me because the orange belt can't blame my blackbelt for "telling".
The Orange belt took it OK-he didn't seem turned off at all... I think he already had the feeling he went a little too far.
I LOVE the idea of making them work together and, in fact, at the next fight class I will pair them up for target drills... (that way they can't hit each other) and my blackbelt can offer instruction, forcing them to talk/work together. They are both good kids-really...

My two cents worth is the chief instructor did exactly the right thing. I know from experience that teenage boys are not subtle creatures and need to be told directly what is not acceptable without "negotiation". The reason behind the quarrel is not an issue or who told the chief instructor. The message needs to that by virtue of his belt he has earned respect in the dojo and elsewhere, end of story. This is an important life lesson that is often learned too late. We all have had bosses we do not like but due solely to their position we must show them a proper level of respect. It is fine to discuss/question why they make certain decisions or give specific direction but in the end they are the boss (at least for the moment). Having the student spar is sending the message that the world is "dog eat dog" with no regards for current authority ("might makes right"). I love martial arts but this is not the world I want to live in! The message should be clear that the Sensei determined he was the senior student and even passive aggressive attitudes will not be tolerated. I see too many parents around who are overly concerned with being their kids "friends" and not dishing out tough love by telling their kids directly what is expected or compromising on key values. Understanding all the changes 14 ~16 year old boys are going through, the expression "never negotiate with a lunatic" might be appropriate.

(Maybe that was 3 cents worth)

[ninjutsu.ws]

I don't believe having the two spar in class will benefit either one. If the "tough kid" loses, it will just lower his self esteem (which is probably the reason he taunts your 16 year old black belt in the first place) to the point that the problems between the two could escalate.

I would sit down and have a talk with "tough kid" and let him know where you stand, and how his behavior is having a negative effect on both kids. Then, get together with both kids and their parents. Have the two kids talk out their problems without any interruptions. You'd be surprised how the right words can fix any problem.

[s.henson]

This is the stupidest thing I've read this year.....

Yes, but there are many days left. Who knows what will be said.

[skatergirl]

letting them spar will do nothing. The "tough" kid knows at least in his head he could take him with no rules, and maybe very well could. Sparring well does not mean much when reality hits. Lay down the rules and the true meaning of the arts. There is only so much you can do with it happening outside the dojo. The black belt needs to deal with this mostly on his own but some general announcments from you would certainly help. This is why we for one will not allow one to be a Black Belt at too early of an age. Maturity and wisdom means much more than raw talent in the long run.

Truer words have never been said.

[Mark_Hemeryck]

The message needs to that by virtue of his belt he has earned respect in the dojo and elsewhere, end of story.

dont mean to sound like a jerk, but i dont respect people because they have a color around their waist. to me, respect is a big thing, i dont care about their reputation or belt. if u treat me with respect, i will treat you with the same respect.

i am a black belt (first dan) and for the longest time my instructor showed me a great deal of support and respect. i later went and joined an mma gym when i was 14, while continuing to do tae kwon do. however, after i joined the mma gym my instructor stopped treating me with respect and instead started to trash talk the people at my mma gym (who dont have the best reputation in the world, but have always treated me with nothing but respect) and started telling me that i shouldnt train there. i have been there for over 2 years now and am continuing to train there because they show me respect. i quit tae kwon do over a year ago because the lack of respect. i got my black belt a year and a half ago, and have yet to receive the certificate from the instructor (certificate in which i paid $400 for) and personally, if u ask me, that is due to a lack of respect on his part.

anyways, what i am saying is that respect isnt earned by having a strap around your waist with a certain color on it, respect is earned by treating other people with respect.

[Daniel N.]

Mark,

A bad experience had once does not constitute enough to make a solid rule of no respect for belt color.

As a martial artist I believe that respect isto be given to everyone be it white belt or 10th dan, on first meeting. Once you have time to work with someone, you can then decide if they deserve as much respect as you first gave them.

Your absolutist idea about MMA gym with no belts being better, which is what I read into your post, is a reason why there is a division between TMA and FMA/MMA gyms. There is no reason for this seperation of respect. Each has a proper place in it's own right.

Why not be open to both ideas?

[Jeff C.]

Mark, welcome to Budoseek!

I understand where you are coming from with the respect thing. But upon first meeting, it is always best to respect the rank while you are getting to know the person under the belt. The same holds true with military, law enforcement, and other jobs with a heirarchy - you meet people who out-rank you, and certain standards of behavior have to be met, even if you do not know that person or you do know them and don't like them. You may not respect the person, but convention dictates that one must at least respect the rank.

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Jeff Cook

[karateguy]

If the blackbelt is capable, let him spar with the troublemaker and demonstrate complete control over him. Let him avoid being hit while connecting at will, thow in a few sweeps or takedowns and make it look easy. Nothing takes the wind out of someone's sails like knowing they're out of their league. The BB doesn't have to hurt the younger kid, just show that he can.

If that doesn't work, discuss it with the little darling....if that doesn't work, punt.

I totally agree, I have use this a number of times....it works1

[Mark Jordan]

Talk to both kids and let them explain their actions/reactions without prejudice. From there, see if you can find ways to settle things amicably. If this wont work, hand them boxing gloves and let them fight until both are exhausted.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Talk to both kids and let them explain their actions/reactions without prejudice. From there, see if you can find ways to settle things amicably. If this wont work, hand them boxing gloves and let them fight until both are exhausted.

This thread was from 2005.

You seem to show up and resurrect old threads, and add simple replies, while refusing to answer questions posed towards you on other threads.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/sh...ht=#post322883

Because of that ,it appears you are just showing up to hawk your website, which is against the rules. I have removed your website link from your signature. You can put it back when you show that you are a contributing member and not just spamming.

[Shihabudeen]

It is true that some people would be better off staying home watching family guy for twenty years than spending the same amount of time cultivating a warrior path but not understanding they are ONE>.. in that they are supposed to be paths to step towards enlightenment... the strong man is not the one who can knock another down, the strong man is the man who can control his own lower self, cage your rage and mature above the selfishness of jealousy... the teacher who can walk a man to such a virtue... that is the true TEACHER...
Respect is a power... its the means that you show others the attention they deserve... it is a habit acquired.... it is environmentally seated... so to share it you can provide the place for it... then let your student approach it on his own... the sign of true respect is when your student listens to you with full attention... and the false sign is when he exalts you falsely when you are the authority, true respect listens to the person intently with full attention.... the absence of true respect in a student means... they cannot be taught...until this condition is changed

Shihabudeen Shapalox

[jjaje]

Since the original posts are 4 years old, I do wonder whatever happened to the original student in the original post.