Re: Bujinkan, etc.

[jailess]

Please forgive a basic question from someone with no experience of Ninjutsu:

People on this thread talk a lot about the Bujinkan, Genbukan and one other one whose name temporarily eludes me: coudl you tell me about the differences between these styles? Are they even styles at all, but unrelated arts? I am aware that Bujinkan has Hatsumi-Soke as, well, Soke, and that it seems to be the biggest organisation, but that's about it.

Yours, -Jame.

[Don Roley]

Quick response.

Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan are all training orginizations where you can learn Togakure- ryu ninjutsu. It is the same art, but taught by different folks with their own ways of teaching.

Sometimes the groups get along. But there are a few folks that like to toss stones at each other when they get the chance. If I was a moderator, I would fear any question like yours since it may open the door for the hot heads to start some trouble.

Try doing a search of those names. If all three show up in one thread, you can probably get a good background on the subject matter without causing the embers to flame up again.

[Ninja in training]

I 've learned the genbukan syllabus from white to black and have read the bujinkan syllabus(for the mostpart)......they are almost identical.

[The Nephilim]

This one on MAP is a good explanation as well:

1. Rank & Promotions
- Bujin is generally all over the board and you can go from white to 4th dan without ever having to see the headmaster.
- Genbu/Jinen are quite strict about their systems and you will have to see the headmaster before going into the Yudansha much at all

2. Technical Organization (syllabus) & Quality of Techique
- Bujin is again, generally all over the board. One club will be very particular with the basics being drilled over and over, and the next club will henka the bejeezus out of everything. Some are really really good, but some are....not.
- Genbu/Jinen suffer dojo to dojo variation as well but are generally closer to one another than you will find in Buj. This is due to the G/J being more tightly regimented as well as being much smaller in size than the Buj. Quality of technique/instruction will vary from club to club, but like the syllabus, they tend to more evenly balanced (particularly higher grades).

3. Political Situation & Money (cost)
- ALL THREE have big time political games going on. Intentional or otherwise, these play a factor in every club and effect every student, even if the student isn't aware. I don't think one is better than the other for this and size does play a factor. By this I mean politics are viciously rampant in the Buj, but they are tighter and more immediately impacting in the other two. (This is the whole size of the fish and size of the sea comparison)
As far as cost goes, most expensive to least (GENERALLY!!)
1. Genbukan (lots of different divisions and grades and $$ to go along)
2. Jinenkan (yearly membership is big $$ and nothing else is cheap)
3. Bujinkan (varies from free to stupidly expensive but the $$ guidelines set out by HM in Japan are the cheapest of the three)

4. Lineage (The darkest and most politically loaded difference)
- Bujin lineage is simple - Takamatsu -> Hatsumi = done. Hatsumi teaches things they way he sees fit and uses the names of the schools as they were given by Takamatsu.
- Genbukan lineage is harder as TS has crossed trained with other students of Takamatsu and gained rank from them, in addition to his time with Hatsumi (as well as chinese influences). This is compounded by TS's organization changes, renaming the schools as his own and declaring himself GM in these schools. (This is not out of line with lineage breaks in historical schools, it just makes things alot more complicated for the scholar.)
- Jinenkan lineage is simple - Hatsumi -> Manaka = done. Manaka calls his own stuff Jinen-filltheblank, but also teaches the different Ryu separately. He calls himself Kancho which is standard for someone who establishes their own style based on other items.

Hope this helps somewhat. The bottom line is that you can get really good or really bad instruction regardless of which you go to.....and none of the lineages have been totally 100% completely confirmed by Koryu organizations in Japan, so lineage arguments are best ignored.

Cheers
__________________
Greg Carson

Martial Arts Planet

[Ninja in training]

This one on MAP is a good explanation as well:



Martial Arts Planet

under what school do study?
just curious

[The Nephilim]

under what school do study?
just curious

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

[Ninja in training]

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Whats your favorite ryu?
I'm a takagi yoshin ryu guy myself.

[KayJay]

Interesting information all around.
What is even more interesting (to me at least) is my Sensei was a personal student of Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura.

The Genbukan is an organization formed by Shoto Tanemura, Hatsumi's former top student, who broke away a couple of decades ago. From what I've heard, the training is still pretty similar to the Bujinkan, but the breakup was not at all amicable between Hatsumi and Tanemura. For that reason, Hatsumi requires that his students not train with Genbukan teachers, and Tanemura doesn't list Hatsumi by name on his website, preferring to give credit to his other teachers.

I did a search on him and found his biography but of course these details were not in there. Where can I find this and other information about him?

[The Nephilim]

Whats your favorite ryu?
I'm a takagi yoshin ryu guy myself.

All 9, and then some.

[Tony Dismukes]

Some quick elaborations on Don's quick response.

The Bujinkan actually incorporates 9 different traditional arts, of which Togakure Ryu is only one. (In fact only 3 of the arts are actually ninjutsu ryu, although some of the others are historically linked to the ninjutsu traditions.) Hatsumi, as leader of the Bujinkan is really teaching a modern synthesis of those 9 traditions. At various times, he has marketed his curriculum as Togakure Ryu ninpo, ninpo taijutsu, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and who knows what else.

The Genbukan is an organization formed by Shoto Tanemura, Hatsumi's former top student, who broke away a couple of decades ago. From what I've heard, the training is still pretty similar to the Bujinkan, but the breakup was not at all amicable between Hatsumi and Tanemura. For that reason, Hatsumi requires that his students not train with Genbukan teachers, and Tanemura doesn't list Hatsumi by name on his website, preferring to give credit to his other teachers.

The Jinenkan is an organization formed by Fumio Manaka, Hatsumi's other former top student, who broke away about 10 years ago. Once again, I understand that Hatsumi was pretty unhappy at the defection, so things aren't happy between the two (although Manaka at least still acknowledges Hatsumi as his original teacher). Once again, though, I think the core curriculum is largely the same.

[jailess]

Re Shoto Tanemura and Fumio Manaka: any idea why they left?

I know the moderator's blood pressure probably just wrent through the roof in anticipation of all the flaming, but I'd just like to know.

Also: are any of these 3 organisations represented in Glasgow or London in the UK? Just for interest...

[Tony Dismukes]

Also: are any of these 3 organisations represented in Glasgow or London in the UK?

www.bujinkanlondon.org - LINK
Genbukan in East London - LINK
I can't find anything in that area for the Jinenkan.


I doubt you'll get anything more reliable than rumors concerning the reasons for Tanemura's & Manaka's split from Hatsumi. Nothing specific I've heard is really worth repeating. Probably the issues come down to a) personality conflicts and b) differences in teaching/organizational philosophy. Hatsumi gives quite a bit of latitude to his instructors in how they teach, but he does sometimes issue edicts from on high as to how things are to be done. Tanemura and Manaka have each been training almost as long as Hatsumi has*, and had doubtless reached a point where they wanted their independence. The actual differences in teaching philosophy may not have been that great, but it comes down to egos and questions of who's going to be in charge.

Personally if I was a teacher for 40+ years, and I had a hard-working, talented student who trained with me for 36 years, I'd like to think that individual would be just as qualified as I would to be the head instructor of an training organization. If not, I'd have to question my own teaching skills. That's just me, though. These folks seem to be much more caught up in traditional cultural values concerning "seniors" and "juniors" than I am.

*Manaka, for example, started training with Hatsumi only 3 years after Hatsumi started training with his teacher (Takamatsu), and trained with Hatsumi 36 years before breaking away.

[Tony Dismukes]

By the way, should you decide to try out training in the Bujinkan or Genbukan, I would try to disregard the politics as much as possible. Just find a congenial training group with a competent teacher and just enjoy yourself.

Oh, HERE is another nice breakdown on the differences between the various organizations.

[jwinch2]

Oh, HERE is another nice breakdown on the differences between the various organizations.

Very informative and apolitical Tony...

Thanks!

Jason

[Neil-o-Mac]

As far as Bujinkan in Glasgow goes, I train at the Bujinkan Tao Dojo, which meets at the Chi Centre, which is above Peckhams on Glassford St., in the Merchant City. http://scotlandninjutsu.bravepages.com is the (old, but still informationally accurate) web page for the dojo. Instructor's a 5th Dan and a decent bloke to boot. :-)

[Tony Dismukes]

Where can I find this and other information about him?

Kara, what sort of info on Tanemura were you interested in?

[KayJay]

Kara, what sort of info on Tanemura were you interested in?

Sorry for the delay. I realize that you (and others) probably have other information regarding these organizations and Tanemura in your links but Internet Explorer has decided to be a horse's butt and not let me in them.
Am open to suggestions other than to the computer (which I've already tried). Otherwise, before I ask the same question as to what has been posted, I need to fix this thing.
And thank you for offering, I'll probably be asking again shortly.

[The Nephilim]

Sorry for the delay. I realize that you (and others) probably have other information regarding these organizations and Tanemura in your links but Internet Explorer has decided to be a horse's butt and not let me in them.
Am open to suggestions other than to the computer (which I've already tried). Otherwise, before I ask the same question as to what has been posted, I need to fix this thing.
And thank you for offering, I'll probably be asking again shortly.

www.firefox.com The alternative to IE6 supplied by Microsoft.

[fifthchamber]

Try www.genbukan.com
It's the homepage for the Genbukan Ninpo group.
By the way, who was your teacher?I am interested to see an Aikido break off from the Ninpo stuff..Have you any ideas how it has changed?
Regards.

[KayJay]

Try www.genbukan.com
It's the homepage for the Genbukan Ninpo group.
By the way, who was your teacher?I am interested to see an Aikido break off from the Ninpo stuff..Have you any ideas how it has changed?
Regards.

I have been on that site, thank you.
My Sensei is Neil Chandler(webpage). Sorry, can't give you any ideas. I'm brand new in the martial arts and have no idea what changes may or may not have been incorporated.