Black Belt Revoked!?

[Jason T Gatts]

A while back I heard about a local instructor that had sent out a letter to all of the other local MA schools informing them that he had revoked the black belt of one of his students (apparently the student had stolen from him or something).
My instructor told me that he gets a couple of letters like that each year. I train with several different instructors, one of them I know has revoked a black belt before and another told me that revoking a black belt is as ridiculous as if your high school called you up and said "we heard what you did and we're revoking your diploma."
What do you think?

[ezzthetic]

I agree with the latter instructor. Even if a student's behavior is thoroughly reprehensible and his instructor does not want to be associated with him any more, it is silly to revoke his black belt.

[kenpo123]

gee, i hope he didnt take his gi away too

[Jeff C.]

I don't think that's so silly. As a high school grad, you don't represent your high school. As a black belt, you represent your sensei.

However, I still can't say I agree or disagree with the process. I just don't think I have seen a convincing argument against it yet, or an argument that convinces me it is silly.

Jeff Cook

[Jason T Gatts]

Jeff, do we represent our Sensei or do we reperesent the style that we train in?

Maybe it's better compared to a college degree? Surely when you list credentials you list the school that you earned your degree from, so do we represent that university?

[Jason T Gatts]

I also don't know if I fully agree or disagree with the practice, I was just curious as to other peoples thoughts on it and if it is something done at their school/gym.

Actually I guess one argument for not being able to take a black belt away would be - most instructors have a curriculum that must be fulfilled in order to achieve each rank (black belt included), once you demonstrate those techniques your earned it. So since you can't take away the knowledge that was required how can you take away the earned reward. Plus taking the belt away after you granted it sort of says that you (the instructor) made a mistake.

I guess maybe I am leaning towards the silliness side.

[Webmaster]

I tend to agree with Jeff that you represent your Sensei, but you also represent your style/ryuha or organization. While you cannot exactly take back a rogue student's knowledge, you can revoke his credentials. This would be no different from a Koryu ryu's hamon (expulsion).

[Tony Dismukes]

I'll cast another vote for "silly".

To my mind, if rank even has any meaning, it would be recognition of the skills and knowledge a practitioner has worked to develop. You can't revoke that skill and knowledge. I think the analogy with a college degree is right on. I'm sure many universities might like the option of revoking the degree of an alumnus who has been a public embarrassment (or who refused to donate to the alumni fund ), but that's not the way it works.

[Jeff C.]

Jason, good discussion. I concur with everything Robert said. I would also add that a black belt is not just knowledge, but to a very large degree it is also attitude, maturity, passion and compassion. It is also leadership ability, and many other intangible criteria that have nothing to do with "knowledge."

Jeff Cook

[Webmaster]

... it would be recognition of the skills and knowledge a practitioner has worked to develop. You can't revoke that skill and knowledge.

I agree, you cannot revoke skill and knowledge, but the key is recognition. That can be revoked, be it recognition of rank, membership, etc.

[khujo78]

I heard of a couple black sashes (belt for other arts) in my kung fu school who got their sashes revoked because they had forgotten the fundamentals. This was found out during testing for the next level. I don't think its wrong at all. If you dont keep up with what you already are supposed to know, i believe you should be dropped down until you get yourself refreshed. I'm really not about the whole ranking thing, so I guess i'm biased, but if a student forgets basic fundamentals, s/he needs to go back and work on them.

[Grei]

That would make sense Doug, but that's not the topic at hand, as the sash wasn't revoked for something the student had done... it was something the student had forgotten. (besides, if they manage to get to black sash level and still forget their techniques... they probably shouldn't have gotten there in the first place.)

I both agree and disagree with the taking away of the belt for a misdeed... I think it would make it much easier really if rank and skill-level were kept seprate. That way you could demote someone without denouncing their ability. I think it would make more sense just to let it be known that they're kicked out of the school though, and dissassociated/excommunicated.

[spud]

I don’t think it’s silly, I think students need to be aware that it’s a possibility & understand that their instructor can & will revoke their “certification” as the ultimate punishment if need be.

The certification is a “passport / credentials” to their future their skills are the vehicle that gets them their. I don’t know of anywhere in the world where if you get a drivers licence & become a danger on the road the licence isn’t revoked. Just because you know how to drive doesn’t mean you are allowed to legally, you must continue to abide by the rules & regs of your legal code. So if you’re an instructor your have the responsibility to ensure students having earned a BB by abiding by all the styles & clubs rules doesn’t then become a menace to society (a thief, liar, cheat, killer, fraudster etc.).

If I put my name on a document to validate a person as genuine, has upheld a code of honour etc & then know that they later no longer values that code enough to continue to uphold it I have every right & responsibility to cancel that document which I signed off on. If I don’t I devalue the style, the other students, myself & my instructor by saying we all only talk about honour & its importance we don’t actually follow through, its all just talk (Paper tigers).

How it affects that person will very from nil to whatever, that depends on the value that person places on your respect & a pretty piece of paper. Certification has been & continues to be a source of pain & trouble & in my personal opinion isn’t worth the paper it’s written on, it’s what’s in your head & more importantly in your heart that counts. At the end of the day revoking a certification is more about doing what is right for the greater good rather than “punishing” an individual.

[Jared Sutton]

I think we should reconsider the "Do your teachers morals matter?" discussion.

If my instructor was a sarcastice hole who would beat up on guys for fun (and I was fine with that), why should I care if one of my students is beating up kids behind the lunchroom?

[Jared Sutton]

I don’t think it’s silly, I think students need to be aware that it’s a possibility & understand that their instructor can & will revoke their “certification” as the ultimate punishment if need be.

The certification is a “passport / credentials” to their future their skills are the vehicle that gets them their. I don’t know of anywhere in the world where if you get a drivers licence & become a danger on the road the licence isn’t revoked. Just because you know how to drive doesn’t mean you are allowed to legally, you must continue to abide by the rules & regs of your legal code. So if you’re an instructor your have the responsibility to ensure students having earned a BB by abiding by all the styles & clubs rules doesn’t then become a menace to society (a thief, liar, cheat, killer, fraudster etc.).

If I put my name on a document to validate a person as genuine, has upheld a code of honour etc & then know that they later no longer values that code enough to continue to uphold it I have every right & responsibility to cancel that document which I signed off on. If I don’t I devalue the style, the other students, myself & my instructor by saying we all only talk about honour & its importance we don’t actually follow through, its all just talk (Paper tigers).

How it affects that person will very from nil to whatever, that depends on the value that person places on your respect & a pretty piece of paper. Certification has been & continues to be a source of pain & trouble & in my personal opinion isn’t worth the paper it’s written on, it’s what’s in your head & more importantly in your heart that counts. At the end of the day revoking a certification is more about doing what is right for the greater good rather than “punishing” an individual.

Yeah to bad Mark Twain marked this as the Ashida Kim Guilded Age. More martial artists than ever but we are poverty stricken with mediocrity.

[TroyRoget]

My instructor told me that he gets a couple of letters like that each year. I train with several different instructors, one of them I know has revoked a black belt before and another told me that revoking a black belt is as ridiculous as if your high school called you up and said "we heard what you did and we're revoking your diploma."

I heard of something similar happening; a professor had his Ph.D. revoked when he was caught plagiarizing in a publication years after receiving his degree.

[Lame Leopard]

I'm not sure where I stand. Sometimes a religious organization will "defroc" a minister for bad conduct. The minister knows as much as he ever did, but his representation of the religious demonination or organization is bad if he runs off with his secretary or steals funds or whatever. On the other hand, I don't think a high school or college has the right to take away a diploma or degree. Perhaps I am inconsistent in my thinking or my logic is breaking down somewhere.

[Grei]

The difference is, religious representatives are kept to a higher moral standard than regular people, that's in part why they're your religious representative of choice.

If you have a college degree, and then it becomes known that you're a fraud that learned absolutely nothing in college, it makes sense to take away the degree, because that's what the degree is for. Knowledge.

In such case... I don't think someone should get their belt taken away for a moral reason, because I feel the belt represents a level of fighting prowess, not some sort of moral high-ground. But some people see the belt differently than I, and so then they are justified.

It all depends on your school of thought, but as long as its valid... taking it away is highly questionable.

[Eliz]

I'm not sure where I stand. Sometimes a religious organization will "defroc" a minister for bad conduct. The minister knows as much as he ever did, but his representation of the religious demonination or organization is bad if he runs off with his secretary or steals funds or whatever. On the other hand, I don't think a high school or college has the right to take away a diploma or degree. Perhaps I am inconsistent in my thinking or my logic is breaking down somewhere.

Very good point, Larry. A very good point! When one's actions force a parent organization to stand trial on their judgments, so to speak, I believe said parent organization should have room to act in accordance.

I have never actually heard of someone having their BB revoked, but I have certainly seen the "who?" routine. A blatant denial [or lack of memory] that the person ever existed, ever trained, was ever seen on the mats, etc. Said overall denial would lead one to believe any paperwork was fraudulent.

[robar1]

The military will punch your ticket if you don't behave. Your skills remain the same. Your knowledge remains the same. Your rank just changes.

When I was training, on the wall was a set of standards..... one had to do with moral character. If you were given a BB based on criteria including having good moral character, it would seem that if you stopped being of good moral character then the support for the BB would also go away.

Robert