Black Belt Revoked!?

[Jeff C.]

I think we should reconsider the "Do your teachers morals matter?" discussion.

If my instructor was a sarcastice hole who would beat up on guys for fun (and I was fine with that), why should I care if one of my students is beating up kids behind the lunchroom?

Because, Jared, if your student was arrested, you too may be legally liable.

Jeff Cook

[khujo78]

That would make sense Doug, but that's not the topic at hand, as the sash wasn't revoked for something the student had done... it was something the student had forgotten. (besides, if they manage to get to black sash level and still forget their techniques... they probably shouldn't have gotten there in the first place.)

sorry got off topic...disregard my statement

[Sgathak]

I vote silly.

We say on this board all the time that a black belt doesnt mean much of anything... so taking it away doesnt mean much of anything either.

[spud]

Sgathak personally i think anyone who has been through the process of earning a BB should hold it very dear to them. If you then loose the validation behind it, it should affect that person if they have any honour left at all. Will it stop them from training or teaching else where probably not in most cases, will it change their skill level no.

It's more about saying this instructor, school or organisation will not be associated with those who choose not to follow the moral, social, ethical codes that they agreed to as a big part of earning that BB.

Skills aren’t affected only credibility & isn’t that a big part of being a BB, with responsibility comes accountability on a larger scale. You take on the role as a leader & what happens to leaders of any kind once they are dirty "Next".

[Kevin]

Why is the BB itself and the organization linked in the manner that has been asserted so far? While the organization may wish to sever ties with a member they no longer view to be in good standing, it would not be necessary to recind what he or she has already earned, unless the dan rank itself was gained through clearly illegal or unethical means.

[Sgathak]

Sgathak personally i think anyone who has been through the process of earning a BB should hold it very dear to them.

Why?

If you then loose the validation behind it, it should affect that person if they have any honour left at all.

Why?

It's more about saying this instructor, school or organisation will not be associated with those who choose not to follow the moral, social, ethical codes that they agreed to as a big part of earning that BB.

Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Ive heard of belt revokation being due to nothing more than hard feelings between instructor and student. The student may not have DONE anything wrong, but... there it is...

Skills aren’t affected only credibility & isn’t that a big part of being a BB, with responsibility comes accountability on a larger scale. You take on the role as a leader & what happens to leaders of any kind once they are dirty

BS... A black belt means youve got a rough idea of what your doing and your ready to start learning the hard stuff.

Leader? Ha! Ive seen black belts well in the good graces of their instructors who couldnt lead their left foot in front of their right, let alone lead other people.

If you think "black belt" means anything other "ranked higher than brown belt" youve been drinking the kool-aid.

[Bad Karma]

But we likes the kool-aid, Joe! Green kicks, arse!

Peace

[KayJay]

Why?


Why?


Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Ive heard of belt revokation being due to nothing more than hard feelings between instructor and student. The student may not have DONE anything wrong, but... there it is...



BS... A black belt means youve got a rough idea of what your doing and your ready to start learning the hard stuff.

Leader? Ha! Ive seen black belts well in the good graces of their instructors who couldnt lead their left foot in front of their right, let alone lead other people.

If you think "black belt" means anything other "ranked higher than brown belt" youve been drinking the kool-aid.

It sounds like you're grouping all holders of black belts together. That's like me hating all guys because one decided to screw me over.

Yes, I'm certain there are black belts that are exactly as you say. And unfortunately it's all too easy in a lot of cases to receive a black belt. Heck, I can just go online and order me one. Because of this, the "award" is cheapened and not looked upon favorably.
Then again, there are those that are committed both physically and spiritually (to a point) to the arts. Those that train long and hard and have good morals. Receiving the black belt means something to them...not that they have completed their training but only a part of it. They have earned it...and it does mean something.
And it's more than just a color.

[Sgathak]

It sounds like you're grouping all holders of black belts together. That's like me hating all guys because one decided to screw me over.

Uhh... Kara... what on earth are you talking about?

I read my post over a few times and Im seriously missing how Ive lumped ANYONE together.

[Luebbers]

I guess it depends on how you judge the level of black belt. If I can tap both the Nogeiras and Ricardo Arona, I've pretty much earned my black belt. But if BTT gets TO'd and "revokes" my BB because I won't pay a percentage of my purse to them, does that mean I'm not a "real" BB?

[spud]

Joe I’m sorry that a BB means nothing to you has no value & you couldn’t care less weather or not it’s gained & maintained via a ethical code. I’m also sorry you consider that if anyone has a viewpoint other than yours you consider them to have a substance abuse problem that affects their judgement so adversely that it no long lines up with yours exactly.

If on the other hand you wish to say something constructive regardless of your viewpoint I for one would be glad to hear it. No exact details were given on the opening thread as to the precise circumstances in this case. The point of view I gave in my threads were if the case was serious & a true breech of the ethical code some if not all instructors I know across a broad rang of the arts adhere too.

[Sgathak]

Joe I’m sorry that a BB means nothing to you has no value & you couldn’t care less weather or not it’s gained & maintained via a ethical code.

Wow, did I say that? No... hmmmmm.
Good job at trying to put words into my mouth however.

I’m also sorry you consider that if anyone has a viewpoint other than yours you consider them to have a substance abuse problem that affects their judgement so adversely that it no long lines up with yours exactly.

And speaking of "silly"....
Talk about getting worked up over nothing.
Wait, no, I take that back lest I be accused of saying you have an emotional disorder.

If on the other hand you wish to say something constructive regardless of your viewpoint I for one would be glad to hear it.

Ummm... ok.

No exact details were given on the opening thread as to the precise circumstances in this case.

Noticed that did ya? Thats why I made my original statement as open as possible.

The point of view I gave in my threads were if the case was serious & a true breech of the ethical code some if not all instructors I know across a broad rang of the arts adhere too.

Huh?

[KayJay]

Uhh... Kara... what on earth are you talking about?

I read my post over a few times and Im seriously missing how Ive lumped ANYONE together.

Okay, how does one take this comment?

If you think "black belt" means anything other "ranked higher than brown belt" youve been drinking the kool-aid.

After posting an example of how incompetent blackbelts can be in regards to their rank.
Sounds to me from that, that due to the lacking ability part of some blackbelts that becoming one is nothing more than a "color change".
If I've read into your comments wrong then pardon my misunderstanding, but that's the way I took it.

[Sgathak]

A black belt is a black belt.
Give it as much reverence as you want... its just a black belt.
Yeah, some people work REALLY hard to get that black belt, and they deserve to feel good about that accomplishment, but its just a black belt.

It doesnt have any magical power to make you a better person.
It doesnt make you any less fallible as a human being.
It doesnt make you more responsible.
It doesnt make you a leader.
It doesnt make you graceful.
It doesnt make you smart.
It doesnt make you taller.
It doesnt make you smell better.
It doesnt make you anything... but someone who earned a black belt.

You might still be pompous.
You might still be sarcastic.
You might still have a bad day.
You might still fall on rough times.
You might still talk a little too loud in mixed company.
You might still have bad breath when you wake up.
You might still fart.
You might still be a simple human... who earned a black belt.

If you are a leader, you are a leader with or without a black belt.
If you are responsible, you are responsible with or without a black belt.
If you are sarcastic, you are sarcastic without or without a black belt.
If you are graceful, you are graceful without or without a black belt.

Now, Spud made two comments and I asked him to expand upon those comments. I would still appreciate a response to those questions. I would still like to know why he feels that a black belt is to be held so dear, that to lose it should be such a crushing blow?

The belt was confered by simple humans, upon a simple human, and if taken away, it was done so by simple human action.

Like "X" in an algebra equation, It has no meaning but the meaning you give it.

[spud]

OK let me explain further if i can & answer your queastions.

1) what i said.
"Sgathak personally i think anyone who has been through the process of earning a BB should hold it very dear to them."

This is my personal belief only & the point of view i was trying to share. Yes sadly many have a BB but that doesn’t mean you are a BB eg. I was taught within the process to becoming a BB you must also develop a personal & moral code of conduct that you then use as a guide when conducting yourself within the MA community. You then allow that to flow into your everyday life until it becomes who you are. This process can be very self confronting & takes just as big a pain tolerance to work through as any physical training session. Through this process you evolve on many levels not just the physical. This process takes a huge effort & as such it should hold great personal value.

2)
"If you then loose the validation behind it, it should affect that person if they have any honour left at all."


Remembering the idea that you are the BB, it’s not the cloth around your waist.

Having that honour confirmed by someone you believe has & does demonstrate the true meaning day in & day out, should mean you ultimately trust value & respect their judgement. If in their judgement you are no longer worthy to receive their approval, be associated or recommended with or by them as they don’t believe you are living up to that standard, should be a huge blow.

What you said
"Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Ive heard of belt revokation being due to nothing more than hard feelings between instructor and student. The student may not have DONE anything wrong, but... there it is..."

I am talking about in the instance of a real case scenario in the context of the above.


"BS... A black belt means youve got a rough idea of what your doing and your ready to start learning the hard stuff."

I agree that once you get to BB you realize you have only taken the first step toward a true understanding of the art. Not about the BS though.

"Leader? Ha! Ive seen black belts well in the good graces of their instructors who couldnt lead their left foot in front of their right, let alone lead other people."

That’s a standards issue, not what I was talking about when referring to BB.

"If you think "black belt" means anything other "ranked higher than brown belt" youve been drinking the kool-aid."

I do think it means more & (read above) as for the cool-aid never tried it or want to.


I hope this has answered your questions & given you a much clearer understanding of where I’m coming from. Agree or not that's cool, as always it's up to each of us to make such calls & doesn’t make us better or worst in doing so. I wish you all the best in your training.

[Tony Dismukes]

Because, Jared, if your student was arrested, you too may be legally liable.

Jeff, do you have any cites for a martial arts instructor being held legally liable for the misbehavior of a student outside of the dojo? What legal theory would support such liability?

[Sgathak]

Mark, thank you for your clairification.

I see what your saying but I still maintain that a belt, of any color, is just a symbol. It means only what you want it to mean. It can mean great things, or it can mean very little at all. As you say "you are the BB, it’s not the cloth around your waist", and taking away that cloth should mean nothing, because the cloth is just a cloth... YOU are the "black belt", and no possession of a cloth, scroll, or the approval of your superiors can EVER take THAT away.

[Bad Karma]

A black belt is symbolic to many people. I don't think it carries much weight or worth unless/until the person wearing has the worth - to me. This means a BB in some system that I have no interest in means nothing. This also means a BB on a person I view as incompetent means nothing. I wouldn't care what was done or not done to obtain the promotion or purchase.

The 3rd aspect, spiritual, is something very personal and unreasonable to hold other's to the same measuring stick when we are generalizing. We've covered the Physical and mental, but the spiritual is another creature unto itself. Up front, I am including philosophical ideals in this aspect. Some systems are very far removed from any philosophical/spiritual mannerisms. Some may be inbclined to bring Budo into the discussion and I have to respond with "which era, culture and whose ideals?" Again, it gets specific when we are being general.

I also recall some great discussion regarding who should and should not be able to wear a BB in the past regarding those physically unable to perform effectively, yet make excellent instructors, and those that are physically capable, yet unable to teach effectively. Should we have a separation of BB's and designate a special belt for each to keep the BB "pure?" Not so crazy an idea since some systems employ such a thing or at least did at one time. What about wrestling, boxing, and coaches in general?!

What's the worth of a BB - to you - if you want an instructor but they can't teach? What's the worth of a BB - to you - if need to be impressed but they can't perform?

Symbolism. Don't feed the ego and fall for the hype. The BB rank is just that and has no more and no less value than YOU have placed upon it. Appreciate it, enjoy it, but don't cling to it. I likes da Kool-Aid as much as anyone, but I don't crave it.

edit: OK, that's it! I'm going to find a way to freeze the forum while I'm typing - LOL!

Peace

[Sgathak]

Tony, I thought your post was excellent... and worded better than I could do.

[Yang Wei Xin]

Its kind of hard to take away something for which you have issued a certificate, however, if someone is making a poor example of themselves, i could see removing them as a representative of your lineage.