Gendai Goshin-jutsu

[kroh]

It seems that in this country (America), with the populatrity of movies like Kill Bill and Enough as well as the paranoia that still shrouds us a bit from terrorism, there seems to be a new system of martial arts devised every week that will teach you the skills you need to protect yourself. They claim to be one thing yet are actually a smattering of mid-level material with no cohesiveness or deeper understanding of real combative principles. A lot of these systems are easily identified when they call their system one thing (such as jujutsu or karate-jutsu, which we know to be very country and time period specific) but what about if they refer to it as something else (Such as goshinjutsu, or gendai budo/bujutsu/bugei).

What are some of the warning signs of a school that has done this but uses all the right terminology and makes a good show of it?

If a student who has been part of such a system realizes that there is no deeper transmission / understanding (for example a modern martial art that claims aikijutsu roots but all of their yudansha fight like kick boxers), how can one rectify the situation. Can a student who has been awarded a proficiency ranking take the skills learned and transform them into something usefull? Or is it best to abandon the study of that art in favor of something more established and effective?

Regards,
Walt

[Gene Williams]

You said it yourself, "...they use the right terminology and make a good show of it...." Look, the traditional ryu are normative, view them as an anchor. The farther you drift, the more likely you are to end up on the rocks-of-the-raunchy-ryu. That isn't to say there aren't skilled people out there doing their own thing, I'd just rather stay closer to the boat.

[kroh]

That isn't to say there aren't skilled people out there doing their own thing,

That is the problem I am seeing though. I know that there are individuals out there that have taken very credible teaching from good sources and combined them into effective fighting methods (Such as Okizaki did with Danzan Ryu). I was wondering how to know the good gendai from the bad? Systems such as Wado Ryu, Goju Ryu, Aikido, and the like are all well and good, but are there any systems out there that have been developed in the last decade that are really worth their salt ( harkening back to the non-flashy effective fighting syllabus of the koryu?) or is most of what we are seeing a wave of junk being pushed onto an uneducated public (as well as pushing the legitimate instructors out of the public eye and into the realm of "I don't advertise").

The other thing I was wondering is, what about the students of these schools who start to do some research and they find that what they have is just the tip of the ice berg? Do they abandon what they have learned in favor of something established and effective or do they try to "mend the damage" as it were by finding reputable instruction to gain the building blocks to strengthen the faulty foundation?

Regards,
Walt

[Gene Williams]

That is the problem I am seeing though. I know that there are individuals out there that have taken very credible teaching from good sources and combined them into effective fighting methods (Such as Okizaki did with Danzan Ryu). I was wondering how to know the good gendai from the bad? Systems such as Wado Ryu, Goju Ryu, Aikido, and the like are all well and good, but are there any systems out there that have been developed in the last decade that are really worth their salt ( harkening back to the non-flashy effective fighting syllabus of the koryu?) or is most of what we are seeing a wave of junk being pushed onto an uneducated public (as well as pushing the legitimate instructors out of the public eye and into the realm of "I don't advertise").

The other thing I was wondering is, what about the students of these schools who start to do some research and they find that what they have is just the tip of the ice berg? Do they abandon what they have learned in favor of something established and effective or do they try to "mend the damage" as it were by finding reputable instruction to gain the building blocks to strengthen the faulty foundation?

Regards,
Walt

You might want to go to the General Martial Arts forum and read what I wrote on the "Two Traditional Paths" thread. But, since we are here right now, I think that MOST of it is indeed a "wave of junk being pushed on the uneducated public." The Okizaki's and Nakamura's developed their ryu from within the tradition, as a logical offshoot from their origins. Their lineage is intact, and there are no drastic departures from the "canon" so to speak. But, really now, how many Okizaki's or Nakamura's do you find? The other thing that gets me is that, when I visit these "new ryu" dojo, I am almost NEVER impressed. If they are so damned good, good enough to start their own ryu, why don't I at least see something that looks better than what your average good sandan in a traditional ryu does? That is not to denigrate good sandan; that is high level MA, but good sandan do not start their own ryu, not even their own kai.

[Cliff Hargrave]

The is really no easy answer to your question. I have met some modern martial artists that have taught eclectic stuff that were fantastic and many more that were horrible. Same goes for traditional, some really suck and some are great. Then you have those that are claiming to be traditional but are really fakes. Some of them are actually very good, but for some reason they feel the need to lie about their background.

Your best bet is to just decide what you want out of your training, pick some places, visit often, take free classes, and ask questions before you commit. Real martial artist have no problem telling you their training background.

Oh, and listen to Gene.

[Gene Williams]

Cliff's right. I should be fair and say that I often visit traditional schools with all the right kata and lineage, but the instructor looks about like a green belt and couldn't fight his way out of kindergarten playtime. However, I think you are still safer starting with a traditional ryu and moving to other arts and fighting methods from there. For instance, I think after some years in karate, someone should pursue judo or jujutsu. An aikidoka who wants to expand his martial skills really should learn how to punch and kick, etc.

[kroh]

You might want to go to the General Martial Arts forum and read what I wrote on the "Two Traditional Paths" thread. But, since we are here right now, I think that MOST of it is indeed a "wave of junk being pushed on the uneducated public." The Okizaki's and Nakamura's developed their ryu from within the tradition, as a logical offshoot from their origins. Their lineage is intact, and there are no drastic departures from the "canon" so to speak. But, really now, how many Okizaki's or Nakamura's do you find? The other thing that gets me is that, when I visit these "new ryu" dojo, I am almost NEVER impressed. If they are so damned good, good enough to start their own ryu, why don't I at least see something that looks better than what your average good sandan in a traditional ryu does? That is not to denigrate good sandan; that is high level MA, but good sandan do not start their own ryu, not even their own kai.

Very good points. The point you made about seeing something that looks better than what is out there is right on target. It would seem that martial arts is much like any other art. The ones that rush into creating a style before developing a foundation seem to be the ones with the problem. They seem to suffer from over organization ( have to have this many set techniques at every belt level and you can't see this at this level) and fail to see the overall point.

Yes, for most people, it's a hobby, but the fact remains that you are instructing a person on the finer points of organized violence. At some point, you have to actually teach some one something about it, and not spoon feed some one a technique at a time (often from the fact that many do not see that all these hundreds of techniques that they are teaching stem from common principles. But if they taught the principle, they wouldn't have anything left to show anyone).

Great post and thank you for the input.
Regards,
Walt

[kroh]

The is really no easy answer to your question. I have met some modern martial artists that have taught eclectic stuff that were fantastic and many more that were horrible. Same goes for traditional, some really suck and some are great. Then you have those that are claiming to be traditional but are really fakes. Some of them are actually very good, but for some reason they feel the need to lie about their background.

Your best bet is to just decide what you want out of your training, pick some places, visit often, take free classes, and ask questions before you commit. Real martial artist have no problem telling you their training background.

Oh, and listen to Gene.

Exactly true on that last point. That is where this whole thing got started. A good friend of mine just got the green light to test for his yodan in the martial art he was studying. He had been with the person for some time and enjoyed what he was doing. While getting ready for the test, he decided to go and play with a judo group to help with certain "new curiculum" that had been sprung on him at the last minute. Training with the judo yudansha ranks was an eye opener as even their simplest methods were done at a level he really coudn't match ( even within his own martial art ).

He started to ask questions and then check lineages and the like and it turns out he was a part of one of those systems that was a shake and bake martial art (that is what he called one of those systems where some one studied karate, judo, aikido, some weapons and threw in an Okinawan kata or two for good measure and combined the whole thing). He quit and is now "in the wind" looking for a good system but is now confused by all the terminology. He really liked the judo and would like to stay within the Japanese flavored systems but all the terminology has him at a loss. As we are not in the same state (old army friend of mine) I can't even go with him to check things out at some new schools.

Had some good advice so far so I will point him in the direction of this thread. Thank you very much Cliff and Gene for all the great info.

Regards,
Walt

[Mark Barlow]

With the ease that facts can be checked today, only an idiot would try to "pad" their history. I train in a gendai system with ties to two older Jujutsu and my instructor never made any bones about the fact that our system drew heavily on Judo & Aikido for terminology, ukemi and rank.

[kroh]

Cliff's right. I should be fair and say that I often visit traditional schools with all the right kata and lineage, but the instructor looks about like a green belt and couldn't fight his way out of kindergarten playtime.

Ok...Let's not be too quick to judge...some of those kindergarteners are tough.



Regards,
Walt

[Ron Tisdale]

Sounds to me that if his body can handle it, he should stick with the judo for a while.

Best,
Ron

[kroh]

Sounds to me that if his body can handle it, he should stick with the judo for a while.

Best,
Ron

That's a great idea. He had a blast when he went but felt very fustrated when working out with the yudansha. Granted, he has never done judo before yet he feels he should not be so easy to take down because of the experience he has in the other art. He is just very fustrated about everything that he is finding out the system he is leaving.

On the plus side...he had a great time for the week he went to the classes, the people at the club were very friendly and accomodating. I'm sure they would welcome him back for more from the sound of things.

Regards,
Walt