Junior black belts--bad thing??

[Jared Sutton]

Gee, thanks Century! You always know what the pathetic martial artists of the world need! Now excuse me while I go tie mine up around my ceiling fan and hang myself with it!

[SteyrAUG]

I think it is a FABULOUS marketing tool...um I mean motivator.

I decided to go one better and will now be issuing Jr. Grandmaster certificates of rank. I'm thinking about starting a "Soke Club" in my Little Dragons class for all of those young ones who are sincerely dedicated to becoming founders of their own system one day.

I'm knocking out a program now, here's what I have so far...

1. Naming your style - How to misread kanji to mistranslate a cool system name. Preying Mantis Kung Fu sounds so much cooler anyway.

2. Creating kata - How to abandon those hard to learn things that don't make sense and string together your pet moves into a form named after you.

3. Fast Track 10th Dan - How to budget and finance a Grandmaster grade with little more than your high school part time job.

4. Looking the part - Are you sure you have enough lightening bolts on your uniform? Why more is usually better (got flair?)

5. Secrets of my success - Why self promotion in rank is ok for me but why you shouldn't do it.

I'm also going to start my own "closed system" Open Style World Martial Arts Championship. Right now our Little Dragon class has 14 World Martail Arts Grand Champions. Little Billy won the even last tuesday, then Jenny won it on Friday and Timmy won it the other day...well you get the picture.

[Kick It In Az]

I'm against JBB's, I don't think that really understand what it means and i dont think that they have trained hard enough. At my dojang you can test for black belt at whatever age (so basically if you start earlly enough you could have a black belt by age 8) but until your 13 the black belt is a bit modified. I'm not exactly sure what they do to change, i think they don't put a stripe on it or something like that. But some of those little kids are really cocky because they're a higher rank then me, I also think that you should never give people a hard time who are more than 2 feet taller than you.

[Jared Sutton]

But some of those little kids are really cocky because they're a higher rank then me, I also think that you should never give people a hard time who are more than 2 feet taller than you.

I guess I'll have to stop talking down to Tiny, the 11 foot yellow belt.

[Grei]

I think aggravating people who are bigger and stronger than you are is a bad habit to be in on general principles, anyways.

[Shidoshi]

velcroe belts its naughty its just plain wrong what next heat seeking shuriken

[KickItInAZ]

I guess I'll have to stop talking down to Tiny, the 11 foot yellow belt.

Hey man, Tiny's my friend

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

It can be a bit of a pain when you see a junior marching around with his new dan grade uniform on acting like he's king of the world. But then again when you see a junior who really has put in the work, struggled to try and keep up with the adults in training, got the stuffing kicked out of them in their dan test, but still got up and carried on, and when they come back to class as a dan grade and you see the pride in their face (and no sense of cockyness), then you know it's a good thing.

UK TSD Fed. places a limit of no higher than First Dan for juniors. They have to wait until they are 16 before going to the next grade - which is First Dan Senior rather than 2nd dan.

Self motivation can be a difficult thing to muster when you get close to that elustrious black belt. A lot of people are put off because they know it is going to be such hard work, and also lets not forget that it can be quite a scary thought for some to actually go for that test and try to pass it after all those years of going up the ranks - I mean what if you failed!! The shame of it!

Because that first black belt is so symbolic I think it is appropriate to allow juniors to attain it - but they better work for it!

[SteyrAUG]

Out Jr. Soke Grandmaster founders put in a LOT of work.

Creating a new system isn't easy, especially when you have mid terms that week.

[Yang Wei Xin]

What about junior professors?

or junior doctors (doogie howser anyone)

or junior police officers (oops nevermind, those actually exist).

[Tina]

Though in some dojangs, I would be held to a JBB at this moment, don't take what as I say to be a resentment on that level.

I don't like it. I believe that the standards and curriculum should be the same. I think that if you can't hang in the adult's class with those who hold the same rank as you, you shouldn't be that rank. I am aware that sometimes these standards just may be un-do-able (sp?) for a child and so I say...he just doesn't need that rank yet. If Billy Avgadult (Average Adult) goes home sweating bullets, does a minimum of 50 pushups, and gets new shin bruises every class, then why shouldn't the Timmy Avgyoungster (no relation). Because he couldn't take that kind of training and so why should he have that kind of rank. I believe this is where the Junior Black Belt comes in somewhere to try to fix the standard gap problem...well, I don't believe it does because when this little bundle of joy turns 16 and gets his REAL black belt, he still hasn't a quarter of what the 35 year old has done because of the fact that he hasn't been subjected to the same standards and then from there they're the same, right? Wrong!

If he's done the same work, all the techniques, and has busted his butt the same ways every day, I say go ahead and give it to him, he earned by the same standards an adult would. If not let him reach 16, see how well he hangs and then we can start feeling around what rank he needs to be at.

Amen!

I was training for my first competition and visited a nearby school that had an entire class devoted to thier black belts. The intructor invited me to spar with them to get me ready for the tournament. (The only black belt at my school is the instructor.) So, I went. I sparred a dozen black belts, one at a time. I thought I was going to die! The first one was a little bitty 8 year old boy. He walked up, snapped into a fighting stance and I got the giggles. He was so cute! The command to begin was given, and he proceeded to kick me upside the head so fast I didn't know what was happening. I couldn't stop laughing long enough to attempt to defend myself. The little 3 foot fart kicked my butt! I was (and am) a lowly yellow belt.

I said all that to say this: The itsy bitsy wittle black belt used me for a punching bag, but I doubt he could have really matched up with an adult of the same rank. I personally think there should be another aspect to our testing. The things we teach in class like respect and humility should be requirements for advancement (in my humble opinion). If those were necessary for a black belt these little guys wouldn't stand a chance.

[hapkikid]

"So I think a black belt doesn't mean as much today as maybe it once did. This would also exlain why new titles were eventually created for the old timers, "Grand Master" "Great Grand Master" and so forth. TO provide elitism to something that once was elite, but became more mainstream."

I am finding the perceptions of Black Belt to be quite distorted on this thread. Most of the "greats" earned their BB's and many consecutive ranks in 1-2 years. What is so great about that? Many of these old schoolers of ALL the arts were awarded rank by their students, yet we are worried about juniors EARNING them? Where is the rational?

Here we are complaining about a 12 year old who has been training for 5-6 years earning theirs. I know in our school, our BB's can take care of themselves against their peers, thats what they pay us for. Our Cho Dan, which we consider a candidate for BB, has a manditory prep time of 6-24 months before they are considered for BB promotion. When they are approved by the instructor, they are pretested then allowed to have a final exam in front of the masters board.

Real mastery does not happen until master ranks, 4th and above. In our system we have 1, only one student in the 23 year history of our schools, actually being eligible for his masters rank at the age of 18. This is if he continues training for the next six years, and if he does, he will be that prodigy. That will put him at about 15 years of training. He is quite an exception, and I would put him up against any student of his age, of any rank.

So my next question would be, how many of you actually have a case of students who have tested for BB & 2nd Dan that are still training and are well on their way to 3rd and 4th? What is the percentage comparative to the number of students you have ever had in your program? I know mine is about 0.001, about 1 in a thousand.

Don't see what the big deal is...........

[Jared Sutton]

"So I think a black belt doesn't mean as much today as maybe it once did. This would also exlain why new titles were eventually created for the old timers, "Grand Master" "Great Grand Master" and so forth. TO provide elitism to something that once was elite, but became more mainstream."

I am finding the perceptions of Black Belt to be quite distorted on this thread. Most of the "greats" earned their BB's and many consecutive ranks in 1-2 years. What is so great about that? Many of these old schoolers of ALL the arts were awarded rank by their students, yet we are worried about juniors EARNING them? Where is the rational?

Here we are complaining about a 12 year old who has been training for 5-6 years earning theirs. I know in our school, our BB's can take care of themselves against their peers, thats what they pay us for. Our Cho Dan, which we consider a candidate for BB, has a manditory prep time of 6-24 months before they are considered for BB promotion. When they are approved by the instructor, they are pretested then allowed to have a final exam in front of the masters board.

Real mastery does not happen until master ranks, 4th and above. In our system we have 1, only one student in the 23 year history of our schools, actually being eligible for his masters rank at the age of 18. This is if he continues training for the next six years, and if he does, he will be that prodigy. That will put him at about 15 years of training. He is quite an exception, and I would put him up against any student of his age, of any rank.

So my next question would be, how many of you actually have a case of students who have tested for BB & 2nd Dan that are still training and are well on their way to 3rd and 4th? What is the percentage comparative to the number of students you have ever had in your program? I know mine is about 0.001, about 1 in a thousand.

Don't see what the big deal is...........

Like I said, if they can hang with the adults, give'em adult rank. But if they're frail and weak and can't take what the adults can, let'em sit back and enjoy childish simplicity for a while. To me, there is no "big deal" where there is no big difference in curriculum and/or training intensity.

[jjaje]

Scott,

Why is there a Masters rank? Why is it needed? Who arbitrarily decided 4th dan is where mastery begins?

Why do many styles have titles linked into their rank? Assistant Instructor (1st dan), Instructor (2nd dan), Head Instructor (3rd dan), Regional Instructor, World Instructor…. The cynic in me thinks it’s a lot of marketing hooey. Getting a black belt does not automatically make one a good teacher, and are all 12 year old black belts mature enough to be teachers? Are they graded on their teaching abilities also?

While it may be true that some of the “greats” earned black belts in 1-2 years, the training methodology was a lot different then. You are only mentioning the “greats”, what about the “averages” and the “substandards” – not everyone who took up karate in the 60’s earned Blackbelts in 1-2 years. Perhaps the “greats” were great for different reasons. Read their background information and you often find out they practiced 15-20 hours a week. Compare that to the average kid who goes to karate for 2-3 hours a week. At 3 hours a week, a person would need 5 years to have the same amount of time into it that the “greats” had. So then is a person (of any age) who gets a black belt in 5 years "great"?

We have all heard stories about how hard training “used to be”. Sweat drenched floors, round after round on the heavy bag. I’ve seen young black belts injure their feet doing board breaking because their foot position was wrong. And they are teaching hand and foot position to the lower ranks? I’ve seen black belt kids do punches with their fist in such a bad position it would injure their wrist if they actually hit anything, and they are the model to be looked up to?

This gets back to my point about training intensity and methodology. Many schools don’t have kids hit the heavy bag because they are kids. Many kids thus have bad hand and foot positions when practicing their punches and kicks. I could go on from there as there are other examples. I’m glad in your school they are competent against their peers, but I don’t believe that is the case in every school out there.

The more I think about it, the more I like how sports like Gymnastics and Fencing do ranking. The only way to get a higher ranking in fencing is to fence higher ranking people in competition and score well. In gymnastics, it takes hours and hours of practice plus competition to maybe move up a level in a years time. Children in gymnastics don’t go from a level 3 to a level 6 in one year. Why should kids go from a 6th gup (or kyu) to 3rd gup (or kyu) in a year? And I’ll tell you, the gymnast probably puts in at least twice the hours.

So you say you don’t know what the big deal is, but I think the big deal is that a black belt just isn’t so special. Earning a Black Belt is not as good as finally getting your “B” in foil. Earning a Black Belt is not like moving to a level 8 or 9 in gymnastics. That’s the problem – it’s just not so special, and I think that is a shame, as it really ought to be. Black Belts are not as elite as other sports, this means that the requirements are not as stringent as other sports So a kid met the requirements for a black belt – big deal. It just ought to be a big deal in my opinion.

[hapkikid]

Just to touch base on your response.

"Why is there a Masters rank? Why is it needed? Who arbitrarily decided 4th dan is where mastery begins?"

Study the history of ranking and the coorelation to the military and you will get your answer.

"Why do many styles have titles linked into their rank? Assistant Instructor (1st dan), Instructor (2nd dan), Head Instructor (3rd dan), Regional Instructor, World Instructor…. The cynic in me thinks it’s a lot of marketing hooey."

There have always been titles for those in higher positions than us. Once again do some reading on the history of ranking and higharchy.

"Getting a black belt does not automatically make one a good teacher, and are all 12 year old black belts mature enough to be teachers?"

I agree. Nor does it make them a teacher at all. I would never consider a junior BB a teacher, let alone any of my 1st or 2nd dans. Teaching is not a large part of martial arts training, though expression and understanding of technique are required from our BB's.

" Are they graded on their teaching abilities also?"

Not necessarily. They are graded on their ability to break down the components of a particular technique and explain them. The ability to run a classroom is an entirely separate thing.

"You are only mentioning the “greats”, what about the “averages” and the “substandards” – not everyone who took up karate in the 60’s earned Blackbelts in 1-2 years."

Exactly what I said. Most of our BB's take anywhere between 3 1/2-6 years to reach this goal, dependant on their training.

" Perhaps the “greats” were great for different reasons. Read their background information and you often find out they practiced 15-20 hours a week. Compare that to the average kid who goes to karate for 2-3 hours a week. At 3 hours a week, a person would need 5 years to have the same amount of time into it that the “greats” had. So then is a person (of any age) who gets a black belt in 5 years "great"?"

Personally, I think anyone who puts that amount of dedication and time into something has done something great.

" And they are teaching hand and foot position to the lower ranks? I’ve seen black belt kids do punches with their fist in such a bad position it would injure their wrist if they actually hit anything, and they are the model to be looked up to?"

I really am not sure why you keep refering to BB's as teachers and teaching?

"Why should kids go from a 6th gup (or kyu) to 3rd gup (or kyu) in a year?

When you were training, did you have to beat up your instructor to move forward? Or was your progress graded and judged upon your level of inprovement?

"So you say you don’t know what the big deal is, but I think the big deal is that a black belt just isn’t so special."

To who, where? In you association, school, neighborhood? Making blanked statements does not resolve issues.

"That’s the problem – it’s just not so special, and I think that is a shame, as it really ought to be."

So, what is your solution?

Respectfully,
Scott Yates

[AndrewSimonsen]

So, what is your solution?

[/QUOTE]
Strip everyone of Belt ranks. I never liked them anyway. Skill is more significant and it can never be subdivided enough to be represented by belts.

[silentassassin]

Scott,

Why is there a Masters rank? Why is it needed? Who arbitrarily decided 4th dan is where mastery begins?

Why do many styles have titles linked into their rank? Assistant Instructor (1st dan), Instructor (2nd dan), Head Instructor (3rd dan), Regional Instructor, World Instructor…. The cynic in me thinks it’s a lot of marketing hooey. Getting a black belt does not automatically make one a good teacher, and are all 12 year old black belts mature enough to be teachers? Are they graded on their teaching abilities also?

While it may be true that some of the “greats” earned black belts in 1-2 years, the training methodology was a lot different then. You are only mentioning the “greats”, what about the “averages” and the “substandards” – not everyone who took up karate in the 60’s earned Blackbelts in 1-2 years. Perhaps the “greats” were great for different reasons. Read their background information and you often find out they practiced 15-20 hours a week. Compare that to the average kid who goes to karate for 2-3 hours a week. At 3 hours a week, a person would need 5 years to have the same amount of time into it that the “greats” had. So then is a person (of any age) who gets a black belt in 5 years "great"?

We have all heard stories about how hard training “used to be”. Sweat drenched floors, round after round on the heavy bag. I’ve seen young black belts injure their feet doing board breaking because their foot position was wrong. And they are teaching hand and foot position to the lower ranks? I’ve seen black belt kids do punches with their fist in such a bad position it would injure their wrist if they actually hit anything, and they are the model to be looked up to?

This gets back to my point about training intensity and methodology. Many schools don’t have kids hit the heavy bag because they are kids. Many kids thus have bad hand and foot positions when practicing their punches and kicks. I could go on from there as there are other examples. I’m glad in your school they are competent against their peers, but I don’t believe that is the case in every school out there.

The more I think about it, the more I like how sports like Gymnastics and Fencing do ranking. The only way to get a higher ranking in fencing is to fence higher ranking people in competition and score well. In gymnastics, it takes hours and hours of practice plus competition to maybe move up a level in a years time. Children in gymnastics don’t go from a level 3 to a level 6 in one year. Why should kids go from a 6th gup (or kyu) to 3rd gup (or kyu) in a year? And I’ll tell you, the gymnast probably puts in at least twice the hours.

So you say you don’t know what the big deal is, but I think the big deal is that a black belt just isn’t so special. Earning a Black Belt is not as good as finally getting your “B” in foil. Earning a Black Belt is not like moving to a level 8 or 9 in gymnastics. That’s the problem – it’s just not so special, and I think that is a shame, as it really ought to be. Black Belts are not as elite as other sports, this means that the requirements are not as stringent as other sports So a kid met the requirements for a black belt – big deal. It just ought to be a big deal in my opinion.

Alot of what you said I agree with, but some of it only applies to certain instructors. My first TKD Sensei was very traditional in every meaning of the word. He himself was Korean and learned the old ways and was determined not to change that for his students. We worked out 6 days a week. On the seventh day it was up to us to work out on our on. He used that to see how disciplined and determened we were. There were no easy breaks. Not even for beginners. He did not allow you to try his class to see if you could handle it. He tried you and chose if you could handle it. I reached my 1st Dan BB at the age of 12. I had my 2nd Dan by 14. In order to receive those I had to be able to completely hang with all of the adults in every way. If I couldn't he wouldn't let me test so there was no room for taking it easy. The problem is where too many instructors now days give out rank just because they can. I know too many students who are not capable of earning a green belt in TKD and already have their BB. This is one of the many reasons that I do not attend a dojo any more and continue my training on my own.

[jjaje]

Regarding the teaching portions:

Well, I'm not referring to your school or methods specifically but more in generalities regarding the original question, and replies that went with it. While not every school automatically makes every black belt an instructor, many do. And in many cases, they are passing on bad technique.

I've been around long enough to know that not every great salesman makes even a good sales manager, and that being a black belt does not automatically guarantee you will be a good instructor, however that is the title and job given to many black belts, whether their skills warrent it or not. Many schools have their little SWAT teams which is maybe OK when it's used to boost enthusiasm and what not. It's not cool when the munchkins are turned in Sensei's Little Helper and pass on wrong information. Again, while it sounds like your school doesn't do this, many do, and that's what I was referring to.

Exactly what I said. Most of our BB's take anywhere between 3 1/2-6 years to reach this goal, dependant on their training.

Again I'm not referring to your school specifically. There do exist martial arts schools where a kid can get a black belt in 3 to 4 years for about 3 hours a week of work. Thats about 600 hours of work. Level 4 gymnasts put in about that many hours in about 15 months, and maybe advance one level in that time.

Personally, I think anyone who puts that amount of dedication and time into something has done something great.

I agree on the dedication part, but I believe the execution must follow. We tell our kids that "Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect." - When after 3-4 years a black belt is still holding their hand wrong when punching - that's not so great. Again, that's not all schools, but I've seen it at tournaments more than I think I should be seeing it.

When you were training, did you have to beat up your instructor to move forward? Or was your progress graded and judged upon your level of inprovement?

Fighting higher ranks was a requirement, and I believe I'm better for it. We grade execution and not improvement. You can improve on something and still stink at it. Either you were able to perform the technique the way it was meant to be or not. There are schools that will award a new belt for the time and improvement part, even if they are still doing things not completely correct. That's why I like gymnastics levels, you can keep improving, but you don't move up until you can also execute the movement the way it should be done.

You see in gymnastics, if you have a hand or foot slightly wrong, there is the very real possibility you can injure your wrist/ankle or worse if vaulting/tumbling. The same is true in martial arts, there is a very real possibility of injury if your technique is poor. The difference is that the risk is still there in Gymnastics, only the instructors have figured out a way of working with kids through the risk. Many martial arts schools (and again I'm not picking on any one in particular) have removed the risk by removing the risky training methid. Thus the kids arn't doing the same type of workout that adults do/did. Even if they put in the same hours, they haven't trained the same way. With the same intensity, impact, ballistics or resistance - and that stuff is important also.

"So you say you don’t know what the big deal is, but I think the big deal is that a black belt just isn’t so special."

To who, where? In you association, school, neighborhood? Making blanked statements does not resolve issues.

Wow, and I thought the same thing (blanket statement and didn't resolve the issue) when you said:

Study the history of ranking and the coorelation to the military and you will get your answer.

There have always been titles for those in higher positions than us. Once again do some reading on the history of ranking and higharchy.

But to answer your question. Most every black belt, including the one I got back in the 80's, isn't as special as:
Becoming a level 10 or elite level gymnast
Becoming a "B" or "A" rated fencer
Becoming an Eagle Scout
Getting a CPA
Passing the Bar
Being accepted into Westpointe...

I think getting a black belt should be more difficult. That's all. Syndrome from The Incredibles had it right when he said "Once everyone is a Super, than no one is."

Now a question about your example.

In our system we have 1, only one student in the 23 year history of our schools, actually being eligible for his masters rank at the age of 18. This is if he continues training for the next six years, and if he does, he will be that prodigy. That will put him at about 15 years of training. He is quite an exception, and I would put him up against any student of his age, of any rank.

There are exceptional people and it sounds like you have one. If I read this correctly - he started when he was around 3-4? If in six years at the age of 18 he may qualify for a Masters title - does that mean he is 12 right now and holds a what 1st dan, 2nd dan?

Do you believe at 18 anyone can have the maturity to fully grasp what it means to have the title "Master"? Not a slam or setup, just curious.

[AndrewSimonsen]

Being accepted into Westpointe...

Do you believe at 18 anyone can have the maturity to fully grasp what it means to have the title "Master"? Not a slam or setup, just curious.

Which I got

And no, an 18 year old is still a kid in most respects, especially in this day and age when children as a whole are less mature than before. 200 years ago in The Royal Navy you would have found children as young as 10 who had combat experience and had a greater grasp on reality and life than almost all 18 year olds today.

[Gordon Nore]

Again I'm not referring to your school specifically. There do exist martial arts schools where a kid can get a black belt in 3 to 4 years for about 3 hours a week of work. Thats about 600 hours of work. Level 4 gymnasts put in about that many hours in about 15 months, and maybe advance one level in that time.

Jeff,

I agree with your thoughts on this 100%, especially all the titles that come with various dans in some schools/systems. There's a level of mysticism to it IMHO. May I meddle with your gymnastics metaphor and take something more commonplace?

Swimming. I'm climbing out on a limb, but I would suspect more people take swimming lessons than gymnastics, with fewer participants competing, and more taking it on as a longer-term activity. Whatever the aspiration, grading and levelling in swimming is pretty much non-negotiable. Swimming instructors, at the Y or a private club, would find themselves in serious trouble if the "promoted" a student with out 100% certainty that they've met the requirements -- no exceptions for a positive attitude, time in, or slight improvement.

I was chatting with a swim teacher / lifeguard at one of the community centres where we have our MA club. We were talking about a couple of kids that we both taught. She mentioned one instance where a parent was begging her to move her kid up a level -- to improve his confidence.
Naturally, she declined, as the child was not prepared to test, plain and simple. It was a matter of safety and responsibility.

Competely non-negotiable. I don't know if it's possible or practical, but wouldn't be interesting if MA standards, within any given style or across styles, were that explicit?

BTW: I'm thinking out loud here -- may be taking my own metaphor too far.