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  1. #21
    Senior Member Gene Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmclain
    Hello Mr. Williams,

    I practice a version of the form, but there is no "jump turning cresent kick" in it. My lineage is from the Chang Moo Kwan, who's founder Byung In Yoon, learned from Kanken Toyama in the 1930's-1945 - though we now probably practice differently than was taught then. Do you know anything about the way Kanken Toyama taught?

    Sincerely,

    Robert McLain
    Hi, Kanken Toyama was a student of Itosu, so I imagine that is the version of Kushanku/Kosokun that is closest to what you are doing. Kanken was the founder of Zen Nippon Karate do Renmei and Shudokan Karate. He died in 1966, I believe. There must be a few of his students still around. My understanding is that Toyama pretty much did the standard Itosu/Shuri kata. He had some relationship with Seitoku Higa, but I am not sure what it was. Higa was younger than Toyama.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by howard
    We called it Kwankong Hyung at Master Cho's JDK school in NYC. If I recall correctly, it was a required form for 2nd dan. It contains a bunch of subsets of the techniques from the Pyung Ahn forms, as well as several techniques that do not appear in those forms.
    Howard, does the version that Master Cho teaches include the jump turning outside crescent kick in the middle of the form? How about the low knife hand strikes following the knife hand blocks at the beginning? I'd be really interested to see just how much it may vary just inside Ji Do Kwan. I remember seeing a video of Choi Bong-young doing the version Kushanku that I was taught in a movie that he and Dr. Ken Min put together with some other martial artists back in the '60s demonstrating the differences between Chinese, Korean and Japanese martial arts.

    Mr. McLain, does the version that you do in Chang Mu Kwan have the high side kicks followed by the elbow strikes in the middle section of the form? Does y'all's version look more like the one in the video that TonyU provided or the Tang Soo Do form in the link that I found? FWIW, Yun Kwei-byung, the founder of Ji Do Kwan, also studied Shudokan under Toyama Kanken after he studied Shito-ryu under Mabuni Kanwa.

    Mr. Williams, thanks for all of your expert input on this. I don't know if I'd characterize the kicks that the Koreans added to the forms as "nonsense." As the Koreans began to incorporate more kicks as TKD grew out of Karate, it would make sense that they would add kicks to the existing forms that they knew as a means of incorporating those kicks into their forms training. I think that looking at the variations in how these forms are done is a good indication of how different styles of Karate and TKD have developed over time, showing their common roots as well as differences.

    On another note, if Kushanku was originally introduced from China to Okinawa, how much did the Okinawan's change it? Did the original Chinese form have more kicks? Of course, these are questions that may be lost to the mists of time.
    Last edited by TEA; 03-01-2006 at 10:04.
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  3. #23
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    [QUOTE by TEA] Mr. McLain, does the version that you do in Chang Mu Kwan have the high side kicks followed by the elbow strikes in the middle section of the form? Does y'all's version look more like the one in the video that TonyU provided or the Tang Soo Do form in the link that I found? FWIW, Yun Kwei-byung, the founder of Ji Do Kwan, also studied Shudokan under Toyama Kanken after he studied Shito-ryu under Mabuni Kanwa.


    The version I practice has side kicks followed by elbow strikes, but the kicks are mid-section level. This may have been taught originally as front kicks. I never asked specifically. But, my teacher has mentioned that the side kick is a rather "modern invention" and the original Pyung Ahns had front kicks, not side kicks. He allows us to practice both ways, since front kicks are more natural and safe for the body - and we have mostly adults that train in our system. I'm wondering if the side kicks we practice in Kong Son Kun were originally front kicks and got changed - like the Pyung Ahn forms. Perhaps Mr. Williams could lend a hand in this question?

    Seems to me Byung In Yoon (Chang Moo Kwan) and Yun Kwei-Byung were good friends in Japan and also when they moved back to Korea. In fact, Byung In Yoon adopted a Bong Hyung (Bo kata) created by Yun Kwei-Byung in his curriculum. Chayon-Ryu (Founder Grandmaster Kim Soo trained at the Chang Moo Kwan beginning in 1951) still uses this today. A person to ask about that would be Master Rick Fine, who posts on this forum. I hope I am not getting Yun Kwei-Byung confused with another Yun.

    I haven't seen the video link you sent. Please re-post (for my benefit) and I can give you an answer.

    Note: I am not a Chang Moo Kwan student. My instructor trained at the Chang Moo Kwan and passes along that lineage in the system Chayon-Ryu. So, I consider myself a Chayon-Ryu student.

    R. McLain
    Last edited by rmclain; 03-01-2006 at 10:53.
    Robert McLain

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmclain
    [QUOTE by TEA] I haven't seen the video link you sent. Please re-post (for my benefit) and I can give you an answer.

    Note: I am not a Chang Moo Kwan student. My instructor trained at the Chang Moo Kwan and passes along that lineage in the system Chayon-Ryu. So, I consider myself a Chayon-Ryu student.

    R. McLain
    Kong San Kun
    and the link that Tony Urena provided:
    Kanku Dai

    I've talked to Rick Fine a little bit about this. Maybe next time I see him we can compare our respective versions of the form.
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  5. #25
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    I've talked to Rick Fine a little bit about this. Maybe next time I see him we can compare our respective versions of the form.[/QUOTE]

    I got to see the videos. Our version is more like Tony Urena's video clip, but has some differences, like the side kicks followed by an elbow, instead of front kick and elbow. We also use the double arm sudo (moving forward) instead of the crossed-arm sudo.

    Rick Fine would be a good resource for comparison when you get the chance.

    Sincerely,

    Robert McLain
    Robert McLain

  6. #26
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    Mr. Williams, have you seen much difference between how Shito-ryu, Shudokan and Shotokan do this form?
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Gene Williams's Avatar
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    There is a lot of difference between the way Shito ryu does the kata and the way Shotokan does it. I don't know that I have ever seen anyone from Shudokan do it. The guy doing Kong San Kun in the video looks pretty awful.

    Anyway, in Okinawan version, no back stance, no side kicks (no high kicks except the jumping kick at the end), blocks are done differently, and the punches actually have power and focus

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Williams
    The guy doing Kong San Kun in the video looks pretty awful.

    Anyway, in Okinawan version, no back stance, no side kicks (no high kicks except the jumping kick at the end), blocks are done differently, and the punches actually have power and focus
    Ouch, remind me never to post any video on the internet.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Gene Williams's Avatar
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    I'll bet your hyungs look better than his.

  10. #30
    Senior Member TEA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Williams
    I'll bet your hyungs look better than his.
    Hmm, if so, would that mean I'm well hyung?
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEA
    I've talked to Rick Fine a little bit about this. Maybe next time I see him we can compare our respective versions of the form.
    After your last comeback, Joe, I'm not sure exactly what we'd be comparing.

    Give me a ring, and maybe we can meet up this weekend.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Fine
    After your last comeback, Joe, I'm not sure exactly what we'd be comparing.
    Just do us all a favor, and don't post the results. j/k

    As to Gene's comment about the person doing the form. I can tell you what is wrong - that guy has major hip problems! Ahhhh, how well we recognize our own.
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  13. #33
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    Before we all get ourselves banned for life, I've got a question for Gene:

    What stance(s) have you seen in lieu of the back stances portrayed in the video? Could you describe the purpose of the movement that resulted in this stance?

    Actually, that's two questions: my apologies. But I am sincerely interested.
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  14. #34
    Senior Member Gene Williams's Avatar
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    Hi, When karate was introduced to Japan, over time (and I do not know if Funakoshi Gichin did this or his son, Gigo, as I have been told), the cat stances that are characteristic of Okinawan ryu were changed to back stances, and the sanchin stance virtually disappeared ( from a quick review in my head and of Funakoshi's book, there are no sanchin stances in any of the Shotokan kata). He also adopted a much more linear type of movement in the kata. It is the general consensus, among the Okinawan instructors I have had, that Funakoshi did this in order to introduce more kenjutsu type movement and philosophy into karate to please the Japanese (who considered karate a peasant art and often scoffed at it, sort of like the aikido types do today ) Over time, Shotokan adopted a straight ahead, power oriented, one-punch-one kill type of philosophy (which I happen to like). You see it in their kata. Okinawan's understand that concept, and it is there, but it isn't the driving focus. There is more subtlety in the Okinawan kata.

    Changing the cat stance (neko ashi dachi) to back stance (kokutsu dachi) and omtting sanchin dachi drastically changes the flow, focus, and intent of the kata and the techniques. To someone watching who isn't a practitioner, it may not seem like much, but when you get Shotokan and Okinawan karateka together, it shows and each feels the difference.

    Since TKD is based more upon Shotokan, it is normal for it to place more emphasis upon power and straight ahead technique. I do not know where the high kick emphasis came from in TKD. It isn't found in Okinawan ryu or in Shotokan as Funakoshi introduced it. To those of us in Okinawan ryu (and this is a generalization), Shotokan appears powerful and pretty. TKD appears to us to have powerful, very fast kicks, to be a bit weak in blocking and hand techniques, and the high kicks make it look acrobatic. The stuff that got added to the TKD kata, in my opinion, have made the kata too "busy."

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Williams
    Changing the cat stance (neko ashi dachi) to back stance (kokutsu dachi) and omtting sanchin dachi drastically changes the flow, focus, and intent of the kata and the techniques. To someone watching who isn't a practitioner, it may not seem like much, but when you get Shotokan and Okinawan karateka together, it shows and each feels the difference.

    Since TKD is based more upon Shotokan, it is normal for it to place more emphasis upon power and straight ahead technique. I do not know where the high kick emphasis came from in TKD. It isn't found in Okinawan ryu or in Shotokan as Funakoshi introduced it. To those of us in Okinawan ryu (and this is a generalization), Shotokan appears powerful and pretty. TKD appears to us to have powerful, very fast kicks, to be a bit weak in blocking and hand techniques, and the high kicks make it look acrobatic. The stuff that got added to the TKD kata, in my opinion, have made the kata too "busy."
    Could the emphasis on high kicks be a Chinese influence? This kind of relates to the other thread on the origins of kicks in modern Karate and TKD. After reading a lot of the responses to my post on that issue here and on E-Budo, I'm starting to think that the empasis on kicks in TKD are a combination of the residual influence of taekyon (more in terms of a cultural preference for kicking techniques than the actual techniques themselves) with a heavy overlay of Northern Style Chuanfa kicking techniques.

    Pardon my ignorance, but what is sanchin dachi?

    Also, FWIW, the forms and sparring style that my Mu Do Kwan buddy used in college empasized cat stance pretty heavily. Traditional Ji Do Kwan emphasizes a low "side fighting stance" (horse stance alligned perpindicular to one's opponent).
    Last edited by TEA; 03-02-2006 at 14:26.
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  16. #36
    Senior Member Gene Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEA
    Could the emphasis on high kicks be a Chinese influence? This kind of relates to the other thread on the origins of kicks in modern Karate and TKD. After reading a lot of the responses to my post on that issue here and on E-Budo, I'm starting to think that the empasis on kicks in TKD are a combination of the residual influence of taekyon (more in terms of a cultural preference for kicking techniques than the actual techniques themselves) with a heavy overlay of Northern Style Chuanfa kicking techniques.

    Pardon my ignorance, bu what is sanchin dachi?

    Also, FWIW, the forms and sparring style that my Mu Do Kwan buddy used in college empasized cat stance pretty heavily. Traditional Ji Do Kwan emphasizes a low "side fighting stance" (horse stance alligned perpindicular to one's opponent).

    I don't know enough about Chinese martial arts to have an opinion. Most of what I've seen (Choy Lay Fut, Hsing I, Hun Gar) does not employ high kicks regularly. I really don't think it is possible to trace the origin of kicks in karate. Kicking is a pretty universal option for self defense in most cultures.

    Sanchin dachi is also known as the "hour glass stance." Your heels are about shoulder width apart, with your toes turned in and gripping the floor. Hips forward, low center, specific kinds of breathing, etc. It is pretty typical of Okinawan karate, especially Goju, Uechi ryu, etc.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEA
    Howard, does the version that Master Cho teaches include the jump turning outside crescent kick in the middle of the form? How about the low knife hand strikes following the knife hand blocks at the beginning? I'd be really interested to see just how much it may vary just inside Ji Do Kwan.
    Hi Joe,

    I'm taxing my memory here (I left Master Cho's school about five years ago to focus solely on Hapkido), but the only jumping kick I recall in his version of the form was the jumping front snap kick at the end. As for the knife hand blocks at the beginning, this part I recall well. They were actually high - the lead hand above the head, the trailing hand near the chin.

    As for the other forms we did there for first dan, it went like this: the first three were ones he called the Ki Cho forms (nearly identical to the Taikyoku forms in Shotokan). Then there were five Pyung Ahn forms. Now, from here on out, I remember the forms, but not the exact sequence in terms of when one learned them at a particular rank. The others were Bal Sak Hyung (Bassai Dai in Shotokan), Ilyo and Koryo (TKD forms that Master Cho adopted into Ji Do Kwan), the first two Chol gi forms (Tekki in Shotokan), Kwan Kong Hyung, and Jitae. I might have left one or two out... I remember hearing higher dans say that there were 29 forms in his system.

    Also, Master Cho taught a series of forms he called "combat forms", which I've never seen anywhere else. There were nine of these. Most of them moved forward, then back along the same line.

    Finally, regarding your points about the Koreans making the kicks higher than the Okinawans and Japanese, I don't know how it happened, but it was definitely characteristic of Master Cho's Ji Do Kwan. For example, all of the side kicks in his version of Kwan Kong Hyung were high kicks. In fact, the only low kick I remember from any of the forms was a low side kick, which was the first kick in a low side kick / high side kick combinaition, at the beginning of Koryo.

    I'll check his website to see if he has any videos of the forms up, but he didn't in the past.

    Hope this helps... regards, Howard
    Last edited by howard; 03-02-2006 at 16:04. Reason: correct typos

  18. #38
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    Howard, thanks for the insight. Makes me wonder where Master Choi learned his version or if he modified it himself. Do you have a link for Master Cho's website?

    Do you still keep in contact with Master Cho? If so, ask him if he knows much about Choi Bong-young and the Ji Do Kwan that he taught in Berkely in the mid '60s through the early 80s. Master Choi learned TKD at a Ji Do Kwan dojang in Ulchiro Sa Ga in Seoul (or was it Ulchiro O Ga?) starting right after the Korean War. He took me to train there for a week and half back in the 1990, but I was unable to find it again when I was in Korea for a month eight years later. I asked the police at the local police box if they knew where it was, but they had no idea. Anyways, if Master Cho knew Master Choi, he might be able to shed some light on the differences.

    Anyone here from Berkely and know Dr Min at UC Berkely? He and Master Choi were good friends and he might be able to shed some light on this, as well. Too bad Master Choi passed away in 1990.
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  19. #39
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    Gene,

    Thanks for your reply (post #34). I appreciate your comparisons.

    Rick
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    Hey Joe, look on youtube for a video titled Rebecca_Kwan-Kong_Hyung, I believe her school is connected to S.Henry Cho's. You might be able to compare forms.
    Of course I can tell you first hand that when I studied at S.Henry Cho's in the 70's and 80's there were several versions of each form depending on how a particular blackbelt did it himself.

    Just for information purposes, the curriculum at Cho's in the 70's was Tae Kuk Hyung 1-3, Pyohng Ahn Hyung 1-5, Chul Gi Hyung 1, Pal Sek Hyung, Chul Gi Hyung 2-3, Ship Soo Hyung and Kanka Doi aka Kwan Kong Hyung. Students were also required to learn combat combinations 1-6. By the mid 80's the curriculum had expanded to include 5 WTF Poomse, that the senior students had incorporated into the ranks from videos Master Cho gave them after a trip to Korea. If I remember correctly, Master Cho returned with a ninth dan and a commitment to support the Olympic WTF TKD movement. The new forms added where Koryo, Jitae, Pyong Won, Cheon Kwon and Ilyo.

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