Survey: Students or Owner clean the Dojo?

[HapkidOist]

This is a responsability that should be shared with students, instructors and the school owners alike. We do a mass cleaning on Saturdays, where everyone pitches in and cleans the studio.

[JiuJitsuRabbit]

There is no way in gods earth that I would be cleaning up in a commercial gym. Unless he decided to train me for free.

Other places that I know the instructor is teaching at an unprofitable or volunteer rate, I expect to be required to clean.

[kozak]

Commercial or not, I believe that one should take part in some cleaning. Its your school too. I a different students after class pas the broom over the mat. Not a big deal, but it they should help out. Its a place where one is learning not just working out like a typicla gym.

[Badjer]

In any of the clubs I have attended the instructor has mostly done the cleaning himself such as windows, floors, etc. However, we were always expected to keep it clean. By that I do not mean we were expected to mop but that all equipment was to be put away, all garbage thrown away, etc. If mats were used they were to be put away. Basically we kept it looking clean while the instructor kept it clean on a molecular level by using chemicals and such. Also, when we we became higher ranks with more responsibility we also cleaned even though we were never asked to.
Cheers!

[Crysto84]

I searched threads to see if this subject has been entertained already, nearly everything else has been! Please pardon if this is redundant.

I was wondering what percentage of Sensei's require or ask for additional non-practice time from the students to clean the Dojo.? I'm referring dry mopping hardwood floors, wet mopping wood with oil soap, bleach & water wiping of mats, bags, etc. More than just a vacuum or sweep of the lobby carpet and pickup of debris, and empty trash containers.

Especially relevant is the case where the Sensei is the only principal instructor with another full time occupation, and he/she is the Dojo owner. Should paying students be expected to spear-head the cleaning duties, or should the owner contract it out or do it him/her self?

Also, what are the philosophical differences between the West and East regarding the answers?

Thank You.

At the Tang Soo Do school that I train at all white belts sweep the floor before class. If there isn't enough white belts then it goes to yellow belts and so forth. If black belts are the only ones there then they sweep the floor. It shows respect to the school. We also from time to time get together and mop the floors and so forth. Everyone is involved in that.

At the Karate school I train at there isn't any set cleaning assignments or anything. If we see something that needs fixing or cleaning we do. Not during class or course.

I know way back when if you wanted to train you had to prove how important the training was to you. So you would clean the school for periods of time before you can join the class. Its a test of dedication, disipline, and respect. Back then you had to convince the instructor to train you. Now you have to convince the student to train under you. Its modern vs traditional. Do you run your school like a business where you put everyones satisfaction above the training. Or do you run a school and teach your art regardless of who is happy and who isn't.

Some people have the belief that I pay you to teach me and give me my belt. Most of those people don't really care much about their training. They just want a belt.

I prefer to teach the traditional way. I will not teach someone who doesn't really want to learn. If you just want a belt you can get a belt for about $6-$7 and a uniform for about $35. Don't waste my time and other students time.

I could go on forever. My point is a traditional school students clean the school. A modern school students might not. What I always did was the instructor cleans his area, such as his office and so forth. Students clean the rest. Training floor, mats, bags, locker rooms, bathrooms and so forth. Now if maintence needs to be done like a leaky roof I believe its the instructor or owners responsibility. If a student does it for a living and offers thats fine.

This is my opinion anyways. The instructor had to clean when he was a student so it gets passed on to his students.

[shodog]

I don't really have an opinion on this...rather an observation.

I think it's interesting that you see mostly "traditional" (note the quote marks...since everyone has a different definition of traditional) artists tend to lean toward student led/assisted cleaning.

The "newer" or "non-traditional" arts lean towards the instructor/owner cleaning.

I have trained in "traditional" arts all my life and it was assumed/expected that students would play some role in keeping the dojo clean (mopping, sweeping, etc.). My instructor would just take the last 30 minutes of class and start dooling out duties...we never thought anything of because "that's the way they do it in Japan" (or used to at least).

I just find it interesting the wide range of posts to this thread.

[KZMiller]

In most of the places I trained if we all expected the head instructor to do all the cleaning the place would fall apart. It was too big a job for one person and he was not our daddy/mommy to pick up after us. As a sign of respect and out of a sense of the fact that this was all our mutual place of training and learning we all pitched in.

We made a contest out of who could wipe their length of mat the fastest. We all lined up, hands on the damp rag, feet on the floor, and ran across. It was fun! Afterward we swept the whole dojo except the locker area--that was done by a janitorial service that the building owner hired to keep the place sanitary. When it came time for paint and repairs there'd be an announcement and folks would show up over the weekend. Not too strangely, it was mostly upper belts and the die-hard regulars that showed up. We all took pride in the dojo and although the place was never perfect and shiny, it was our beloved and well-lived-in dojo and we took care of it as best we could.

[loki]

I'm late coming to this one, and I honestly skimmed it so I don't know if the point has been made:

Liability and Insurance. In a commercial or 'club/membership' setting, I live in the liability/sue happy U.S. of A and I would not want to see the civil suite come my way that said that little Johnny student got pink eye because he was cleaning a toilet OR that someone was injured during cleaning - which would be outside of the student/participant role that insurance would cover.

I understand the old world demonstrative value of respect and such, but most of us train in first world Western cultures where martial arts schools are viewed as recreational/sports businesses. In those terms, you don't see gym members cleaning the machinery beyond what they have sweat on.

Now, a true and chartered 'club' like a rod and pistol club or boaters club is a different story. Members agree to certain terms of use, including sometimes a shared responsibility for maintenance.

If the idea is to keep the place clean primarily, do it yourself or contract a cleaning service if you can afford it. If the idea is some kind of demonstrative show of respect/reverence for the training space and instruction, having students wipe the matts they just used or - taking it a step farther - getting the school invovled in an 'adopt a highway' program is a great way to demonstrate respect/character.

[Crysto84]

I'm late coming to this one, and I honestly skimmed it so I don't know if the point has been made:

Liability and Insurance. In a commercial or 'club/membership' setting, I live in the liability/sue happy U.S. of A and I would not want to see the civil suite come my way that said that little Johnny student got pink eye because he was cleaning a toilet OR that someone was injured during cleaning - which would be outside of the student/participant role that insurance would cover.

I understand the old world demonstrative value of respect and such, but most of us train in first world Western cultures where martial arts schools are viewed as recreational/sports businesses. In those terms, you don't see gym members cleaning the machinery beyond what they have sweat on.

Now, a true and chartered 'club' like a rod and pistol club or boaters club is a different story. Members agree to certain terms of use, including sometimes a shared responsibility for maintenance.

If the idea is to keep the place clean primarily, do it yourself or contract a cleaning service if you can afford it. If the idea is some kind of demonstrative show of respect/reverence for the training space and instruction, having students wipe the matts they just used or - taking it a step farther - getting the school invovled in an 'adopt a highway' program is a great way to demonstrate respect/character.

I understand what you're saying and I respect your view point. However, there are ways to clean and still be healthy. If you're cleaning a tolite or sink you can wear gloves. As for as injury goes if everyone pay attention to what they were doing they will be fine. Its no different then everyday life. If someone driving runs into someone because they weren't paying attention does the DOT get sued for it? As far as diseases like pink eye; you can bacteria anywhere. You going to sue every business you've been in? Some bacteria is air born. You going to sue God or nature?

I think when it comes down to it people are just lazy. I wonder if those people keep there homes clean. See thats another thing. When you have your students clean the school you also teach them to clean at home as well.

People are sue happy. All people care about is easy money. No matter what you do you will never be safe from a lawsuit. People can sue you just for looking at them now a days.

This is my view point. I mean no disrespect to anyone.

[JWhiteSensei]

I'll say this first of all. If you're teaching a martial arts style and you're worried about someone getting injured from cleaning, you've got more to think about than a law suite.

As far as my dojo, I require my students to pick up after themselves. That means if they make a mess, they clean it up. They do not leave clothing, pads, or equipment strown around the dojo. I insist thay they treat the dojo with the respect they would someone's home that they were visiting. In doing that, they learn to respect the dojo and their art. I did have an incident where someone (one of my younger male students) made a mess in the restroom namely the toilet area. No one would fess up to it. So I had them, in teams of two, clean the restroom every night for a week. People have a way of governing themselves and I have not had the problem repeat itself since.

I clean the dojo myself the rest of the time. It's sort of a therapy for me. I go down early in the morning three times a week. I work out and then I clean. We have a pretty nice sound system and I crank up the music, clean the mats, vacume, dust, clean windows, and whatever else needs to be done. This also places me there in case I have a walk in that time of the day. I do have several students, especially the older ones and adults, who will do things like take out the trash.