Sneaking, Hiding, Camoflage and other such activities

[comanighttrain]

Hey guys, I have very little experiance of these subjects.

I am aware that modern ninjutsu dojo focus more on tai-jitsu, but does anyone actually retain knowledge on more obscure skills such as Sneaking, Hiding, Camoflage, Outdoor survival, Concealing things on your person, Deception, Escaping persuers and so on and so forth.

I know a little about a lot of these sorts of subjects, such as not using solid colours for camoflage/hiding (Jet black does not make you invisible at night etc), I know a little about surviving on not much outdoors (mainly water > food, shelter > food, deer hunting and dont eat "monks hood") etc.

Just wondering if anyone knows much about this in relation to ninjutsu or even not so, i think such skills are important for self preservation.

I also know that some ninja in ancient history hid inside the refuse(sewage) pit for quite a long time to assasinate a japanese officer of some sort, i cant remember the name or date of this, or even if it were true.

[Niten Ninja]

That's a legend. As far as I know, ninjutsu is taught as mainly theory rather than practice.

[Kennin]

Why do people always think you have to practice these things in order to train ninjutsu?
It's the same as if people felt obliged to study courtiership when going into the martial arts of the samurai.

[heretic888]

I also know that some ninja in ancient history hid inside the refuse(sewage) pit for quite a long time to assasinate a japanese officer of some sort, i cant remember the name or date of this, or even if it were true.

You seem to be referring to the death of Uesugi Kenshin here.

Legend has Kenshin's death attributed to a dwarven "ninja" sent by Oda Nobunaga that hid in his latrine for three days and then slayed him "from below" with a spear. As the story goes, the culprit was never captured.

However, it is my understanding that most historians don't put much weight into this story. Uesugi Kenshin was extremely ill and sickly in the months prior to his death, with many of his close retainers being extremely worrisome concerning his health. At one point, he wrote a haiku that seemed to indicate he had knowledge that he was dying. In addition, the man was something of an alcoholic. Turnbull discusses all this in some detail in his most recent publication on the ninja.

Occam's Razor reminds us not to needlessly multiply hypotheses. In this case, the most parsimonious explanation is that Uesugi Kenshin died of some kind of stomach cancer or ulcer. This is somewhat reminiscent of Ashikaga Yoshihisa, who died of pnemounia after a failed military campaign in Omi Province, but whose death was attributed to "ninja" assassins in some stories. I've even heard a few stories attributing Oda Nobunaga's death to "ninja" when, in actuality, he commited seppukku after being betrayed by Akechi Mitsuhide.

If we are to believe the words of historians like Turnbull, then there is actually very, very little in the way of actual historical evidence to tie the Iga/Koga "ninja" groups to the practice of assassination. In all cases, it pretty much seems to be examples of the aforementioned, in which legend and superstition attaches the "ninja" mystique to incidents that were far more mundane and believable in nature.

Laterz.

[Rasputin]

Why do people always think you have to practice these things in order to train ninjutsu?

Because, to the casual observer, sneaking around in the dark with pointy objects is what is cool about ninja. Blame the media. Oh, and Ashida Kim.

[comanighttrain]

Why do people always think you have to practice these things in order to train ninjutsu?
It's the same as if people felt obliged to study courtiership when going into the martial arts of the samurai.

Well if martial arts has taught me anything its that a diversity of skills is better than being great at one thing. So yeah, be great at hand to hand combat, focus on it in the dojo and train hard (you may as well, your probobly paying for it).

Aside from that though is it not good to have other skills? E.G. A good mma fight will trash any ninjutsu student in a straight up hand to hand fight, but if the ninja was to introduce say...a knife...or a blunt weapon, chances are the mma fighter will know NOTHING about how to hand the sitation and the roles will be reversed.

So lets say your being chased by a group of thugs (neds, yobs or whatever you want to call them) all the ninjutsu in the world doesnt beat a good burst of speed or some other escape route (hiding, climbing, id swim through a river to avoid a beatdown).

What attracted me to ninjutsu more was the diversity of skills seemed to be taught (escaping persuers, hiding,weapons training), i had an ebook on the subject that descibed escaping, hiding and concealed entry but i lost it and it was so long ago i dont remember much about it.

[Jason Chambers]

Aside from that though is it not good to have other skills? E.G. A good mma fight will trash any ninjutsu student in a straight up hand to hand fight,

You know what they say about assumptions and complacency...

If you really want to learn these types of skills, why don't you enlist in a special forces branch of the military? You'll get LOADS of training.

[Niten Ninja]

"Aside from that though is it not good to have other skills? E.G. A good mma fight will trash any ninjutsu student in a straight up hand to hand fight,"

Great logic there. An MMA fighter is someone who fights under MMA rules not a style. They are not mutually exclusive.

[comanighttrain]

"Aside from that though is it not good to have other skills? E.G. A good mma fight will trash any ninjutsu student in a straight up hand to hand fight,"

Great logic there. An MMA fighter is someone who fights under MMA rules not a style. They are not mutually exclusive.

True, but most MMA fighters come from a style that does indeed have a lot of lethal techniques. Even those that done do get taught some in mma. Without a weapon your really playing to the mma fighters game, dont be dumb, use a stick.

lmao @ jason chambers : I was actually in training for the marines for a while (our marines are more like your SEALS i think, as opposed to being general assault infantry like the US marines). Hence i do know a lot about a lot of subjects relating to survival, I never got sworn in due to my Father begging me not to go as i am an only child.

[gfys]

True, but most MMA fighters come from a style that does indeed have a lot of lethal techniques. Even those that done do get taught some in mma. Without a weapon your really playing to the mma fighters game, dont be dumb, use a stick.

lmao @ jason chambers : I was actually in training for the marines for a while (our marines are more like your SEALS i think, as opposed to being general assault infantry like the US marines). Hence i do know a lot about a lot of subjects relating to survival, I never got sworn in due to my Father begging me not to go as i am an only child.

There are lethal techniques in every martial art. I hate it when people automatically assume that MMA is better than anything else. Style is not the only thing that affects the outcome of a fight. I'm not even talking about just weapons. But hey, let's not have a pissing contest to see what art is better than what art. It really doesn't matter and is a moot point. And if you do know a lot about subjects relating to survival, why'd you say in your initial post that you didn't?

[Jason Chambers]

Keep on laughing... I am.

[comanighttrain]

when did i say i knew a lot about it? i said i knew about a lot about a lot of subjects relating to it. By which i meant i have a broad general knowledge on the subject but not much in depth knowledge.

to put an end to the flaming, does anyone actually have anything new to add to the subject or is everyone who reads this pretty unaware of anything but combative techniques?

[Don Roley]

You seem to be referring to the death of Uesugi Kenshin here.

Legend has Kenshin's death attributed to a dwarven "ninja" sent by Oda Nobunaga that hid in his latrine for three days and then slayed him "from below" with a spear. As the story goes, the culprit was never captured.

However, it is my understanding that most historians don't put much weight into this story.

To be quite clear, this theory does not seem to be discussed at all in Japan. The source in the West seems to be from Donn Draeger and his book on ninjutsu. His source for the 'legend' seems to be a Japanese comic book.

I would not say that this story even raises to the level of historical theory.

[Don Roley]

when did i say i knew a lot about it? i said i knew about a lot about a lot of subjects relating to it. By which i meant i have a broad general knowledge on the subject but not much in depth knowledge.

From where I stand, to say that you have any knowledge is false and a sign of egotism on your part.

To be blunt, you do not even know what sources are good and which are bad. You have never been a student of the art. You mix things from comic books and movies with a few tidbits of real info.

If you accept the fact that you know almost nothing about the subject and that what you think may be false, then you will have a great potential for growth. But I look at what you write above and see that you think you know something- and that will cause you to close your eyes to corrections and new info that you so desperatly need.

[The Nephilim]

True, but most MMA fighters come from a style that does indeed have a lot of lethal techniques.

Oooh should I rip him up for this?

Now which body orifice is this from? When a MMA fighter starts MMA from a style, terms come into play and they have to lose all the "killer techniques" just to compete. So kick, punch, grapple and look like a gay porn film in the UFC fights is all they can do.

But it was said. If you want to learn to hide, learn fieldcraft for outdoors survival and camoflage, go to the military. Be a seal and get clubbed in Alaska Talk to Soulend. He knows people that can teach you. Or look up Ray Mears books and the SAS surival books.

[Niten Ninja]

True, but most MMA fighters come from a style that does indeed have a lot of lethal techniques. Even those that done do get taught some in mma. Without a weapon your really playing to the mma fighters game, dont be dumb, use a stick.

Not anymore than most styles. It is quite resonable to be both an MMA fighter and a taijutsu practitioner.

hate it when people automatically assume that MMA is better than anything else

MMA isn't a style. It's a rule set.

When a MMA fighter starts MMA from a style, terms come into play and they have to lose all the "killer techniques" just to compete. So kick, punch, grapple and look like a gay porn film in the UFC fights is all they can do.

I don't get it what exactly are these "killer" techniques. I've never bought that arguement. The things the rules outlaw are generally unneccesary things or desperation attacks.

[The Nephilim]

When you compare budo to MMA, you see that MMA has rules. Most are common sense like no eye gouging, groin shots and nerve attacks. It is making the sport that is MMA a watchable sporting event. With the referee controlling the fight so these "killer techniques" are not applied to the extent to place a competitor in danger, the risk of something going wrong is reduced.

Now budo does not have the rules like MMA. MMA people would love to have a budo competition fight where all the safety is taken away. I would love to see budo against MMA. I would like to see the look on a MMA fighter when you produce a Shinken and start to fight. But as MMA has Kokoro and Fudoshin, it lacks the budo aspect. Some will say that MMA has budo, but the element is removed to the point that it has as much relevence as budo has in Judo.

So when you get Muay Thai fighters coming on here saying that they have budo, we all snigger, point at the monitor and call them idiots at their lack of understanding. Budo is the Japanese warrior fighting form that stems from the military fighting on the battlefield. Budo has armour, weapons, explosives [depending on what form you fight with], spiritual and philisophical.

So when MMA fighters say they have techniques that are lethal, well, yeah... In the ring which is a confined space. But they are not trained for the budo side and the realisation of fight to survive. Fighters in MMA may come from a buso type background, but once they do MMA, they lose the style and become an eclectic compilation of skills. With MMA they fight to win within a controlled environment. Budo practitioners fight to get home, no matter what the cost is to that persons trying to kill you. MMA may be a great sport, but we don't do sport as taijutsu, we do it to make sure we dont have to have our family members crying at a graveside.

[comanighttrain]

Ok, we are going way off topic here.

Niten Ninja : thats true that someone can study Tai jitsu and MMA. Usually most mma fighters come from a background (whether that be TKD, Karate, muay thai or whatever. Bas Rutten is arguably the best example as he went TKD->Muay Thai->MMA) . So i agree, i see need to argue the point further eh?

The Nephilim : If you look at Niten's point you can see that a MMA fighter can still sue his old techniques, just because one does MMA does not mean one only does MMA....If i like to climb mountains does it mean i cant swim?
also, i amk getting some ray mears books, he seems to be quite reputable.

Don Roley : how do you even come to that conclusion? you dont know anything about me? what are you saying i dont know?

[Don Roley]

Don Roley : how do you even come to that conclusion? you dont know anything about me? what are you saying i dont know?

I know what you have written. And based on that, you really do not know anything worthy of mention. Do you want to try to say that you know something when you have not even studied the art and quote things from comic books?

[comanighttrain]

i was actually told about that by none other than a ninjutsu student.Even at that your drawing your conclusion from one piece of information.

Even more so, to say i know nothing worthy of mention is totally false.