Juppo sessho and aiki no jutsu;a connection?

[Tatsujin]

I was recently wondering about a possible link between juppo sessho and aiki no jutsu(note:not aikido)? anyone some input on this one?

I like both arts very much since they are so easily compatible;both are about the gokui,the principles an finesses instead of techniques an sich.

in my mind there is really no seperation between them and it's especially interesting since they are considered both the ultimate basis and the ultimate secrets..

[jwinch2]

Please don't cross post in multiple forums...

Thanks and welcome to budoseek!

[Jeff C.]

Thomas, welcome to Budoseek.

From what I understand, juppo sessho is not an "art" in the sense of a formal method of training. It is a result of training, and can be achieved through many different schools of training. It seems to hint at a thoughtless but directed freedom of decision/movement while dealing with the "negotiation" of a combative outcome. Aiki, on the other hand, is a concept that deals with the interaction and manipulation of energies while executing physical technique.

As far as I'm concerned the concept of "wa" encompasses all of that, but I will spend the rest of my lifetime trying to figure that out.

Jeff Cook

[Jay Bell]

I was recently wondering about a possible link between juppo sessho and aiki no jutsu(note:not aikido)? anyone some input on this one?

I like both arts very much since they are so easily compatible;both are about the gokui,the principles an finesses instead of techniques an sich.

in my mind there is really no seperation between them and it's especially interesting since they are considered both the ultimate basis and the ultimate secrets..

Ehh..not so much really. Keep in mind that the type of work used in both were, at one time, just how things were done. Proper, high level Jujutsu would also be the same..

[Mekugi]

What is Juppo Sessho?

[Jeff C.]

What is Juppo Sessho?

It is a hard-for-me-to-understand term used by the Ninpo crowd. My understanding is probably quite shallow; it seems to relate somewhat to the idea of ran.

Jeff Cook

[Tatsujin]

Ehh..not so much really. Keep in mind that the type of work used in both were, at one time, just how things were done. Proper, high level Jujutsu would also be the same.

I agree,and it was not my intention to present them as exclusive of one and another.I was taught for example that Juppo Sessho where the foundation techniques of taijutsu,but quite difficult in correct execution in comparison with for example rough and tough-jujutsu/taijutsu;There was some info in Hatsumi's ''way of the ninja''-book on the topic that seem to back it up.

Well,the interesting part for me is that Koteki Ryuda no maki,deals with a tiger&dragon fighting and that that it is the basis of taijutsu;in aikijutsu the is a story about 2 mythological gods fighting,and that this would be the basis for aikijutsu.Altough i have no dates at hand at the moment,could the scrolls have a connection with each other?(yes i realize that since humans have 2 legs and 2 arms there are so many moves possible)

[Tatsujin]

Jeff it is indeed an outcome of training,refined to subtler levels of execution;this where the connection with aikijutsu lies in my perspective.

Altough there are formal ''excercises'' of juppo sessho it is essentially technique-less technique(how's that for a koan and i've seen it at the American Bujinkan Association listed in their program for 8th dan.We did a lot of this in the dojo;sometimes as a warming-up.

Aikijutsu on the mechanical/technical level(which i intended in my original post) is high level,refined jujutsu or without the jutsu,subtle methods and teachings for unbalancing and alike.Jujutsu can be seen as gyaku-te,while aiki is jun-te.Or a lock is so subtle,that is not felt as such until it is too late,used with methods that the opponent traps himself actually.

[Tatsujin]

Now the interesting thing is that in Ninpo the Ryuda no Maki are the basis for taijutsu,presented as the outcome of a tiger&dragon fighting;whereas the same thing goes around in aikijutsu,which was ''created'' as a result of a fight between 2 gods,who documented them.It would be interesting to knwo the historcial data and if there are soem connections between them;given that the 2 densho existed.

[Jeff C.]

I have merged and pruned this thread with the similar one in the jujutsu forum.

Jeff Cook

[Don Roley]

From what I understand, juppo sessho is not an "art" in the sense of a formal method of training. It is a result of training, and can be achieved through many different schools of training. It seems to hint at a thoughtless but directed freedom of decision/movement while dealing with the "negotiation" of a combative outcome. Aiki, on the other hand, is a concept that deals with the interaction and manipulation of energies while executing physical technique.

For someone outside of the tradition, you certainly seem to know your stuff!

I personally think that you should not try to read too much into the similarities and such between Aiki and Juppo Sessho. It is nice to have some sort of reference sometimes, but trying too hard kind of puts blinders on you when you see something similar. Best to just deal with one as it is and the other as something seperate. If you end up working on parralel things that is better than missing some small, but important difference IMO.

[Jeff C.]

Don, why do you assume that I am outside the tradition? Maybe in true ninja fashion, I have been there all the time, but you just haven't noticed. Just messing with you brother.

I have friends who are, and I read alot - if the book has many pictures, that is.

Jeff Cook

[comanighttrain]

ahhh - too much japanese

[George Kohler]

What is "Ryuda no Maki"? Never heard of it before. It would translate as "Striking Dragon scroll".

There are scrolls called "Ryuko no maki" which translates as "Dragon Tiger scroll" and is well known in Kukishin-ryu/Takagi-ryu circles.

Also, there is a Amatsu Tatara scroll called "Ryusen no maki" that does not have the character or meaning of "dragon", which contains ninjutsu in its writing.

Is it one of these you were talking about?

[George Kohler]

BTW, the meaning of juppo is ten directions (8 cardinal directions + up and down). So I would guess the meaning of this would mean 3 dimensions?

And sessho in its modern meaning is "negotiation", but I'm sure the older meaning of this has something more to do with "fighting", since the kanji has the respective meaning:
Setsu - break, yield, submit
Sho - collide, thrust, pierce

Tanemura Sensei sometimes refers "sessho" as an old way of saying something like jujutsu and also refers it as "certain victory".

My guess of meaning would be "fighting within the 3 dimensions. You could use space as well, since it seems that "kukan" (space) is a term used alot in the bujinkan.

[George Kohler]

Jeff,

I think where Thomas is getting his "aiki" idea might be "Koteki Ryuda" from the term "Koteki Ryuda Juppo Sessho no Jutsu"

Ko (from koteki) is tiger and ryu (from ryuda) is dragon. Sometimes when used together it refers them as being totally opposite, like yin/yang.

Don, do you know if the kanji for teki is "enemy" or is it "target"?

[Tatsujin]

Jeff,

I think where Thomas is getting his "aiki" idea might be "Koteki Ryuda" from the term "Koteki Ryuda Juppo Sessho no Jutsu"

Ko (from koteki) is tiger and ryu (from ryuda) is dragon. Sometimes when used together it refers them as being totally opposite, like yin/yang.

Don, do you know if the kanji for teki is "enemy" or is it "target"?

Yes,that's what i meant There are differences offcourse with aikijutsu as Don said,but i think that's just difference in specific application;let it be clear that i do not mean aikido here.In aiki they work with what in ninpo is called kyojutsu tenkan ho,altough their terminology differs offcourse.

I have heard other Shidoshi and Shihan say that Taijutsu at the higher levels looks more and more ''aiki''.

[Jeff C.]

George, thanks for the education! I'm glad somebody came along who knows what they are talking about.

Jeff Cook

[Don Roley]

Don, do you know if the kanji for teki is "enemy" or is it "target"?

Let me ask a native speaker and shihan before I answer. I should be able to do so before the end of the weekend.

[George Kohler]

I'm glad somebody came along who knows what they are talking about.

Jeff Cook

Jeff,

I'm far from knowing it all. I was just guessing based on translating the words. It is not a concept that I have heard yet in the Genbukan.