Competition Sanda vs. traditional sparring

[Crane]

My instructor keeps complaining that none of us spar in style. The thing is that as soon as it comes to competition- most people's minds blank and they immediately revert to kickboxing. But then, Sanda means chinese kickboxing! The rules are geared towards a kickboxing style because you get points for punching and kicking as well as take downs and manipulating your opponent to move off the mat. Yet when we are training in a normal sparring class, we are encouraged to use everything we know. (obviously without real force) This includes moves which would otherwise be illegal in Sanda or inappropriate due to padding e.g. striking to back of kidneys, open-hand sparring, arm breaks and other last resort techniques.

But since there is a clear distinction between the 2 types of sparring, how can we be expected to use traditional white crane moves in a Sanda competition? Any thoughts?

[Yang Wei Xin]

Rules are always going to take away from your ability to fully utilize your art, but as with mantis at my school, with enough practice, the techniques will come out without thinking.

[Crane]

I hope so! Because right now, competition fighting to me looks quite rough, unpolished and simply vile. It's not that I want to actually remove my opponent's bowels or see other people doing it, but it would be nice to at least vaguely resemble something out of Crouching Tiger or see other people doing it in competition. After all, I didn't start Martial Arts to do boxing. With time hopefully, the stances will come instinctively along with the graceful movements of the crane. Or maybe I just won't compete! I mean, what would my mother say if that was what she saw? It's supposed to be flamboyant! Any other thoughts on sparring?

[Jeff Burger]

competition fighting to me looks quite rough, unpolished and simply vile.

Thats because they often cancel out each others skill. Beleive me theya re very polished.

but it would be nice to at least vaguely resemble something out of Crouching Tiger or see other people doing it in competition.

Train for some martial art fantasy can be dangerous should you ever need real skill.

After all, I didn't start Martial Arts to do boxing. With time hopefully, the stances will come instinctively along with the graceful movements of the crane. Or maybe I just won't compete! I mean, what would my mother say if that was what she saw?

Maybe you should appreciate the boxer. For all their ugliness they are great atheletes.
Competing is great because it forces you to realize the improtance of conditioning.
What would your mom say if you got hurt or killed in a real fight on the street?

It's supposed to be flamboyant!

No its not. Its supposed to work.
Im not trying to be mean but those are some potentailly dangerous illusions.


Jeff

[Crane]

QUOTE=Jeff Burger]Thats because they often cancel out each others skill. Beleive me theya re very polished.

I meant in my own club. You see punches rather than crane blocks. But I agree, perhaps the word “vile” was a little extreme. I haven't seen much CMA competition. I know they don't do it much in China- and when they do- its Sanda like in my own club.


Train for some martial art fantasy can be dangerous should you ever need real skill.

“vaguely resembling” does not mean “training for a fantasy”. I tend to use well known visual examples to demonstrate I mean because forum communication is deceptive in tone. Intended in a light –hearted way, so sorry if you took me literally. I only tried to use the analogy of Crouching Tiger for fighting in style.

Maybe you should appreciate the boxer. For all their ugliness they are great atheletes.
Competing is great because it forces you to realize the improtance of conditioning.
What would your mom say if you got hurt or killed in a real fight on the street?

I never claimed to do Kung Fu simply for the benefits of self defence. What right do you have to impose your own ideas of what martial arts should be about for all practitioners? What if I simply wanted to train to keep my limbs in use, to help me fight a chronic disease? What if this is what I see beauty in and therefore practice it as a form of enjoyment? Who are you to tell me I must spend however many years I have left training only to learn how to defend myself on the street? I know MA were originally intended as a weapon of war, but where guns are as rife as in your country, do you really think MA are the most realistic form of defence on the street?

No its not. Its supposed to work.
Im not trying to be mean but those are some potentailly dangerous illusions. Jeff[/QUOTE]


I am not afraid of hard work. In fact, I compete and condition: But as much as I have respect for any athletic talent, we live in a free society and I chose White Crane Kung Fu not Boxing. I just want to remain true to the style. To train to make my body do what the style dictates. Perhaps it’s just frustration that I haven’t managed to do that yet. This post was only intended to introduce a discussion on how MA view the conflicts between point sparring and real sparring. Not self defence.

Please don’t worry about coming across as mean. A healthy exchange of ideas is always welcome, and I wouldn’t have a forum any other way.

Respectfully,

[Jeff Burger]

"I know MA were originally intended as a weapon of war, but where guns are as rife as in your country, do you really think MA are the most realistic form of defence on the street? '

Thats why alot of martial art died off.

What you are talking about sounds alot like "Do". I think part of "Do" should be self defense, keeping root function.

Jeff

[Crane]

"I know MA were originally intended as a weapon of war, but where guns are as rife as in your country, do you really think MA are the most realistic form of defence on the street? '

Thats why alot of martial art died off.

What you are talking about sounds alot like "Do". I think part of "Do" should be self defense, keeping root function.

Jeff

Is "do" a chinese term? What exactly is it?

[sean_stonehart]

Do is Cantonese for Tao (Dao) ...

[Crane]

Do is Cantonese for Tao (Dao) ...

Ok, thanks Sean. But Dao is often a mystified term that can be analysed and discussed without end.

I will try to put my standpoint more succintly:

Martial Arts are for fighting. I quite agree that the root function of any MA including Tai Chi, is self-defence. If any other benefits come through training, then they are added bonuses. But I have seen my instructor apply many flambuoyant movements that actually work. I am in no way suggesting that real skill should be compromised for flowery displays of empty knowledge. This is quite off the point from my original intentions because Sanda competition fighting is not about real self defence situations. On the street there are no pads, no rules, no bows of respect signalling when to start, no referees- the differences are endless. Competitions are simply another aspect of training. All I am saying is, I would like to train so I don't look thuggish, but find this might conflict with Sanda.

[sean_stonehart]

No one is saying martial arts are not for fighting. They are by name (wu shu, mo seut ... pick your language/dialect) about fighting. However you came in talking about a topic & expecting an answer (I guess) for your dilemma. Make it simple then. If you're wanting to spar & use only your Bak Hok, then train for it. If you're wanting to spar for the sake of contact & not worry about content, then kick box. If wondering why nobody uses their MA in context any longer... look at the calendar. It's 2006, not 1806, 1796, 1546, etc... where content of MA training methods would be most similar to context of usage in combat.

If you want to use Bak Hok in sparring, fine & good luck. Expect to be handled by your hingdai for a while until you figure it out. My sifu allows no sparring in our class until kickboxing isn't how we fight, but CLF techniques are. Maybe your sifu sees things differently, but mine wants us to use our MA as he taught it so that's the rules he laid down.

[Crane]

No one is saying martial arts are not for fighting. They are by name (wu shu, mo seut ... pick your language/dialect) about fighting. However you came in talking about a topic & expecting an answer (I guess) for your dilemma. Make it simple then. If you're wanting to spar & use only your Bak Hok, then train for it. If you're wanting to spar for the sake of contact & not worry about content, then kick box. If wondering why nobody uses their MA in context any longer... look at the calendar. It's 2006, not 1806, 1796, 1546, etc... where content of MA training methods would be most similar to context of usage in combat.

If you want to use Bak Hok in sparring, fine & good luck. Expect to be handled by your hingdai for a while until you figure it out. My sifu allows no sparring in our class until kickboxing isn't how we fight, but CLF techniques are. Maybe your sifu sees things differently, but mine wants us to use our MA as he taught it so that's the rules he laid down.

Bak Hok? Hingdai? Please excuse my ignorance, we don't use many chinese terms in class. Your Sifu perhaps sets a reasonable rule- but don't CLF techniques contain kicks and punches too? My instructor sees things the same way as yours, hence the original post "My instructor keeps complaining...." except he doesn't cancel sparring but instead tries to reform our way of sparring. I assume you have learnt to spar to make good use of your CLF techniques, and yet it is 2006! So to me you would be sparring in context. I guess I'm just jealous because it hasn't become instinct yet I am sure the answer to my dilemma must simply be the usual one: train more!

[sean_stonehart]

Bak Hok? Hingdai? Please excuse my ignorance, we don't use many chinese terms in class.

Too bad... you're missing out on a large part of the culture...
Bak Hok == White Crane
Higndai == training brothers

Your Sifu perhaps sets a reasonable rule- but don't CLF techniques contain kicks and punches too?

Yes, but we're working & focusing on using them only as CLF techniques, within the confines of the CLF theory & application, not as plain kickboxing which is what about 99% of the MA world does when sparring comes into play.

My instructor sees things the same way as yours, hence the original post "My instructor keeps complaining...." except he doesn't cancel sparring but instead tries to reform our way of sparring.

Well... maybe he needs to re-exam how he's doing things then. I can't speak to that since I'm not there & not him, but that's just an opinion.

I assume you have learnt to spar to make good use of your CLF techniques, and yet it is 2006! So to me you would be sparring in context.

Of course I learned to spar with my CLF as CLF. What I was getting at is you seemed to have this preconceived notion that just becuase you study Bak Hok that you'd fight with Bak Hok just like "back in the the good ol' days" or Shaw Brothers movies. Nope. That takes time, patience & practice and the environment to make that happen. If your class is sparring in more of a kickboxing atmosphere, then you can't fully expect your Bak Hok to be used as such since the environment isn't condusive to developing that skill set.

If you want to learn to spar with Bak Hok, as Bak Hok... talk to some of your hingdai. Maybe you can find one or more that has the same outlook or goals as you & you can work outside of class on it.

I guess I'm just jealous because it hasn't become instinct yet I am sure the answer to my dilemma must simply be the usual one: train more!

Now you're on the right road...

[Crane]

Thanks for the comments. We use "Bai Her" for White Crane.

I don't want to give you the wrong impression about our club: sparring in class is not the big problem because we are not confined to certain rules. It's just competition Sanda. But maybe its all in the name: Sanda = chinese kickboxing so you kickbox. There must be a way of training to mould the style to fit competition rules though, and one day I WILL pull it off. (Well, I can try )

[sean_stonehart]

Thanks for the comments. We use "Bai Her" for White Crane.

Cantonese v Mandarin... not a biggie.

I don't want to give you the wrong impression about our club: sparring in class is not the big problem because we are not confined to certain rules. It's just competition Sanda. But maybe its all in the name: Sanda = chinese kickboxing so you kickbox. There must be a way of training to mould the style to fit competition rules though, and one day I WILL pull it off. (Well, I can try )

Sanda/san shou is just a term for kickboxing. If I'm not mistaken, it means closer to free fighting or something similar. All CMA's have sanda incorporated, otherwise there'd be no fighting at all!!!

Each group or organization has it's own rules for competative sanda it seems on you can & can't do. I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you're wanting to compete with sanda. I'd make my hands better within the structure & guidelines of whatever CMA (bak hok for you, CLF for me, etc...) you're studying. Most CMA's that have sanda teams IMHO teach kung fu in class & kickboxing for sanda instead of teaching kung fu for sanda as well.

[Crane]

Most CMA's that have sanda teams IMHO teach kung fu in class & kickboxing for sanda instead of teaching kung fu for sanda as well.

It's nice to know that I'm not imagining it. We are taught to try and actually use what we have learnt in kung fu when it comes to competition, especially since my instructor wants someone from our club to win the inter-club competition shiny stylist sparring cup! No one has actually won it yet because they won't give it out if it's not deserved. As I said before, I think the reason people are reluctant to use bai her/bak hok or whatever style they practice is because of the Sanda point system- maybe many clubs teach "kickboxing for Sanda" as you said, for this reason. But we use the same rules as they do all over China and the Asia-Pacific so I guess it's just tough. Anyway, I shouldn't sit here talking about it, I should be training for it!

Thanks again for the comments.