Kung fu and other tma in mma

**Oniw17** · 07-03-2006, 22:23

I haven't really seen many of the more "stylistic" systems of kung fu or other "unique" tma styles. Is there any reason for this, or is a kickboxing/bjj combination just better than tma?

**DungeonWorks** · 07-03-2006, 22:52

Originally Posted by Oniw17

I haven't really seen many of the more "stylistic" systems of kung fu or other "unique" tma styles. Is there any reason for this, or is a kickboxing/bjj combination just better than tma?

I would think it is safe to say that yes, it is better...for inside the confines of the rules and regulations of the sport of MMA. Toss in eye gouging and small joint manipulations and you have a whole new sport.

No style is a "complete" style. This is why you see MMA guys fighting in 3 or more styles...usually a striking, grappling, and elements of the clinch.

**Luebbers** · 07-04-2006, 10:30

The main thing that sets most MMA competitors apart from TMAers is the training. Most, I say most, not all, TMAs don't train full-contact continuous sparring. So, when you get into a "live" environment, as they say, it becomes a whole new game.

When you get into a live environment, you also find out what works and what doesn't. Most of the so-called "fancier" more elaborate techniques, usually don't hold up so well in a full-speed, full-contact, non-stop environment.

**AllanJGAnderson** · 07-04-2006, 11:21

Originally Posted by Luebbers

When you get into a live environment, you also find out what works and what doesn't. Most of the so-called "fancier" more elaborate techniques, usually don't hold up so well in a full-speed, full-contact, non-stop environment.

Well said, but I would be interested to see what it would be like if eye-gouges and small joint locks were allowed. It would be a whole new game I think. Because a great defence against a mor expieranced grappler is to hit nerves, gouge eyes, and do lots of what some would deem 'cheap' moves. I wonder if those types of techniques were allowed if it would go back to being a striker's game.

**shutterspeed** · 07-04-2006, 12:23

Allan:

I am aware of international MMA tournaments allowing small joint locks. Eye gouges, however, I am not. But I'm sure there are probably a few on the world scale that may even allow this, though they likely would not have any credibility or respect due to safety (lack of) issues.

**Oniw17** · 07-05-2006, 01:59

Are there any good MMA fighters with tma backrounds?

**DungeonWorks** · 07-05-2006, 09:54

Originally Posted by Oniw17

Are there any good MMA fighters with tma backrounds?

Chuck Liddell-Hawaiian Kempo, Koeikan Karate (as a kid)
Georges St Pierre-Kyokushin Karate
David Loiseau-Tae Kwon Do
Jason Delucia-Various Kung Fu, Aikido
Bas Rutten-Kyokushin Karate
Stephan Bonnar-Tae Kwon Do
Karo Paryisian-Judo
Kieth Hackney-Kenpo Karate

...of course most do not solely rely on TMA's in MMA competition, but these are some of the "backgrounds" of which they came from.

**jwinch2** · 07-05-2006, 10:52

Originally Posted by AllanJGAnderson

Well said, but I would be interested to see what it would be like if eye-gouges and small joint locks were allowed. It would be a whole new game I think. Because a great defence against a mor expieranced grappler is to hit nerves, gouge eyes, and do lots of what some would deem 'cheap' moves. I wonder if those types of techniques were allowed if it would go back to being a striker's game.

You are making the classic assumption that only people who are not experienced grapplers can use these techniques effectively. If you are fighting a more experienced grappler, I would submit that he/she is more likely to put you in a position where those techniques would be maximized when they performed them. And, where they are less exposed to those moves themselves. If a Judo/BJJ/JJJ guy has you in any sort of hold, (guard for example) that is a pretty good time to gouge an eye or break a finger or two. Especially if you are using your hands to prevent an arm bar.

I'm not saying that they don't help even the odds, but dirty fighting tactics go both ways...

**asdf** · 07-05-2006, 11:26

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Especially if you are using your hands to prevent an arm bar.

I'm not saying that they don't help even the odds, but dirty fighting tactics go both ways...

I could be wrong becuase I'm not a JJ guy, but I believe that you need two hands to do an armbar on someone else (I think). I only brought this up because of Matt Hughes' armbar on Gracie - I was wondering if Hughes would have kept on going if Gracie poked him in the eye!

**jwinch2** · 07-05-2006, 11:49

Originally Posted by asdf

I could be wrong becuase I'm not a JJ guy, but I believe that you need two hands to do an armbar on someone else (I think). I only brought this up because of Matt Hughes' armbar on Gracie - I was wondering if Hughes would have kept on going if Gracie poked him in the eye!

No, you are right. I just didn't do a good job of explaining my point. I was thinking of an attempt to prevent the armbar by gripping with the other hand or using your hands to fend off the attempt. A good eye gouge or finger break might give you the distraction needed to get the bar set. Similar to the earlier UFC's where Gracie would just sit in guard and heel kick someone in the kidney's until it forced them to move into a position where he had an advantage.

Sorry for the lousy visual...

Later!

**AllanJGAnderson** · 07-05-2006, 13:50

Originally Posted by jwinch2

No, you are right. I just didn't do a good job of explaining my point. I was thinking of an attempt to prevent the armbar by gripping with the other hand or using your hands to fend off the attempt. A good eye gouge or finger break might give you the distraction needed to get the bar set. Similar to the earlier UFC's where Gracie would just sit in guard and heel kick someone in the kidney's until it forced them to move into a position where he had an advantage.

Sorry for the lousy visual...

Later!

Good point, and techniques like that do go both ways, but if eye gougeing, finger breaking, trachea pinching/pressing became more common, wouldn't it seem more likely fighters with a more striking focus would retake the upper hand? I havn't realy formed much an opinion on the matter yet, but I do find it interesting to think about. Especially with the enigmatic near-legendary reputation BJJ has as being 'Unbeatable' and best for the octagon (Primarily by people with no knowledge of MA's).

**shutterspeed** · 07-05-2006, 13:59

Well, in the earlier days of the UFC a plethora of violent strikes were allowed that did, in fact, favor more strike-oriented fighters. The strikes (elbows, head butts, et al.) aided in escaping the clutches of jiu-jitsu and wrestler practioners.

That is, of course, until they eventually met up with Royce.

If you do a little research, I'm sure you will find various international tournaments with lax rules that feature many of the aspects you're curious about. They're definitely out there. Like I said, though, just don't expect them to have much credibility because of safety issues.

**AllanJGAnderson** · 07-05-2006, 14:20

Those leagues though are hard to come by, because they usually don't if ever take place in the US, or any other western country for that matter. And when they do it's usually outside the sight of the law and sports regulations commitees so they wouldn't make their statistics available to the public let alone myself.

**Luebbers** · 07-05-2006, 21:19

Someone, I forget who, has a great quote in his or her sig about the rules limitations in MMA. A lot of people forget that these rules are in place for YOUR protection as well as your opponent's.

I'm not sure how much including so-called dirty moves (eye-gouging, small joint manipulation, biting, etc.) would really impact the game. Most of these moves are either too difficult to train in an effective fashion, or wouldn't serve as a strong enough deterrant to fend off an attack. However, that's really conjecture on my part. I think it's best that the sport NOT include these things, but I do have to admit curiosity on how it would affect a fight.

Using an eye-gouge to try and defent an armbar, as was earlier described, might concievably be a practical tactic in some circumstances.

**DungeonWorks** · 07-05-2006, 22:13

....or a bite to the back of the knee/thigh area, "Oil Check" with a thumb...ect It'd get really ugly to watch for sure. LOL

**AllanJGAnderson** · 07-06-2006, 10:09

"....or a bite to the back of the knee/thigh area, "Oil Check" with a thumb...ect It'd get really ugly to watch for sure. LOL"

Give him the ole Mike Tyson!

**Luebbers** · 07-06-2006, 19:50

Originally Posted by DungeonWorks

....or a bite to the back of the knee/thigh area, "Oil Check" with a thumb...ect It'd get really ugly to watch for sure. LOL

That's the kind of "dirty" stuff that I just don't feel would really be all that effective. I think it would be very difficult to get a solid enough bite on the back of my leg that I A)couldn't squirm my let out of it without sacrificing too much position, or B) would be severe enough to get me to relinquish an armbar that's really sunk (a la' Enter the Dragon).

As for an oil check, there are probably more effective uses for whichever hand is doing that. In the case of an armbar, you'd have to let go of your own arm to go for the oil check, thus giving me the armbar.

I'm not saying these things would never be useful, I just don't think they'd make as big a difference in the fight game as a lot of people think.

**asdf** · 07-06-2006, 20:55

Originally Posted by Luebbers

That's the kind of "dirty" stuff that I just don't feel would really be all that effective. I think it would be very difficult to get a solid enough bite on the back of my leg that I A)couldn't squirm my let out of it without sacrificing too much position, or B) would be severe enough to get me to relinquish an armbar that's really sunk (a la' Enter the Dragon).

I've never been bitten before (nor have I ever bitten into anyone else), but I just can't believe that a bite would be ineffective. The masseter muscle, combined with the favorable leverage of the jaw, makes the biting motion one of the strongest forces the human body can generate (I think 4300 Newtons is the record?). Under duress, a human can easily bite a chunk of flesh out of another human. I would bet that very few people on the planet can withstand that without trying to escape.

But we're speculating.

What is an oil check?

**DungeonWorks** · 07-06-2006, 21:03

Originally Posted by Luebbers

That's the kind of "dirty" stuff that I just don't feel would really be all that effective. I think it would be very difficult to get a solid enough bite on the back of my leg that I A)couldn't squirm my let out of it without sacrificing too much position, or B) would be severe enough to get me to relinquish an armbar that's really sunk (a la' Enter the Dragon).

As for an oil check, there are probably more effective uses for whichever hand is doing that. In the case of an armbar, you'd have to let go of your own arm to go for the oil check, thus giving me the armbar.

I'm not saying these things would never be useful, I just don't think they'd make as big a difference in the fight game as a lot of people think.

It wont end the fight, but it may make you flinch or react enough to allow me to get my my hand turned enough to take the pressure off my elbow. Same with the "oil check"....just a distraction.

Those were just thoughts I had reading it. A bite to the back of my thighs would make me react for sure! YOWCH!!!

**Luebbers** · 07-07-2006, 19:23

Originally Posted by asdf

I've never been bitten before (nor have I ever bitten into anyone else), but I just can't believe that a bite would be ineffective. The masseter muscle, combined with the favorable leverage of the jaw, makes the biting motion one of the strongest forces the human body can generate (I think 4300 Newtons is the record?). Under duress, a human can easily bite a chunk of flesh out of another human. I would bet that very few people on the planet can withstand that without trying to escape.

But we're speculating.

What is an oil check?

I have no doubt that a bite could inflict serious injury. Seizure victims can bite your fingers off if you're not careful. I was just thinking (and maybe I'm hypothesizing too much, here) that the leg is so thick, it would be difficult to get a solid bite. Plus I guess I was thinking of the position being similar to this picture

It seems that it would be difficult to get into a good position for a bite, as well.

An oil check is wrestling term for probing an certain orifice of your opponent as a means of distraction. And I'll give you a hint, you aren't sticking your thumb in his mouth.