Objective way to determine rank/budo art

Nthdegree · 07-19-2006, 16:59

Is there a 'process of elimination' in determining legit 10th dans?

from what I understand, there are NO 10th dans in the west which are also recognized in the East. is that right?

so let's say someone creates their own style and promotes themselves (or friends promote them in exchange for rank themselves). what would be the process of being recognized as a budo art? and if someone claims they are a budo art, how can someone verify if they are?

how does one verify rank and if something is budo? 'budo' suggests japanese, so does that mean they must be recognized by japan in order to claim budo status?

thanks, -Ed

**Gae-Bek** · 07-20-2006, 12:42

It all depends on what you consider "legit". Does legit mean authorized by another individual? Or does it have to be an organization? There are plenty of shady individuals AND organizations out there who will grant rank to anyone with a pulse and a checking account.

But, anyone with substantial experience can recognize within a minute or so, whether or not you really know what you're doing. No certificate or belt can save you from that, no matter how "legit" they are. Of course, it's often the case that the self-proclaimed 10th Dan folks tend to shy-away from situations where their ineptitude might become apparent, such as training with those who can beat them.

**Gene Williams** · 07-20-2006, 13:02

Legitimate tenth dan are awarded, in Japan, by the ZNBK or the shihan board of an organization. It is generally done posthumously, but occasionally while living. It is a truly high honor and fairly rare. It is a safe bet that people running around in America calling themselves "10th dan" are full of crap.

**Brian R. VanCise** · 07-20-2006, 13:38

Originally Posted by Gene Williams

Legitimate tenth dan are awarded, in Japan, by the ZNBK or the shihan board of an organization. It is generally done posthumously, but occasionally while living. It is a truly high honor and fairly rare. It is a safe bet that people running around in America calling themselves "10th dan" are full of crap.

Gene that really depends on the organization. If you are talking Karate, Judo, Jiujitsu then you are probably right on. However, if you get into Budo Taijutsu or some other Japanese arts then you would be incorrect.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

**Jeff Burger** · 07-20-2006, 13:47

I dont put alot of value on rank, its to relative to the individual school or style.

More and more its alot of politics.

Jeff

**Musubi Dojo** · 07-20-2006, 13:53

Originally Posted by Jeff Burger

I dont put alot of value on rank, its to relative to the individual school or style.

More and more its alot of politics.

Jeff

Yup.

some extra words....

**Gene Williams** · 07-20-2006, 13:53

Originally Posted by Brian R. VanCise

Gene that really depends on the organization. If you are talking Karate, Judo, Jiujitsu then you are probably right on. However, if you get into Budo Taijutsu or some other Japanese arts then you would be incorrect.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

I am ONLY talking about ryu that are recognized by the ZNBK. What others do I could care less.

**Brian R. VanCise** · 07-20-2006, 14:17

Originally Posted by Jeff Burger

I dont put alot of value on rank, its to relative to the individual school or style.

More and more its alot of politics.

Jeff

You are definately right on there Jeff!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

**Brian R. VanCise** · 07-20-2006, 14:30

Originally Posted by Gene Williams

Legitimate tenth dan are awarded, in Japan, by the ZNBK or the shihan board of an organization. It is generally done posthumously, but occasionally while living. It is a truly high honor and fairly rare. It is a safe bet that people running around in America calling themselves "10th dan" are full of crap.

Hey Gene glad to have you back.

However your quote above said ZNBK or Shihan board of an organization. If all you meant were ZNBK recognized ryu then you cannot claim that anyone else walking around with a 10th Dan is full of crap. The reason for this is that the ZNBK is just one small area of martial arts and their are many, many, many organizations whether Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc that do not fall under the ZNBK and some of them use Dan rankings.(rightly or wrongly)

If you were to say that anyone not pracitcing a ZNBK recognized martial art was full of crap if they had a 10th Dan then you definately could rightly have that opinion except that you have excluded probably 90 percent of the martial arts on the planet from your equation. I have no problem with exclusion if that is what you chose but you must understand that not everyone will share your opinion. (in the long haul it will always be a minority opinion) That is just my 02. for what it is worth!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

**Brian R. VanCise** · 07-20-2006, 14:31

PS

I am not trying to start a battle of words with you just a nice discussion because I enjoy your posts!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

**Brian R. VanCise** · 07-20-2006, 14:46

Here are just two very prominent martial artists that were tenth Dans or equivalent in their respective arts.

Helio Gracie

Remy Presas

Is either one not legitimate by not being recognized by the ZBNK?
Most people would say no, because they fall outside of the ZBNK which is not the governing body for all martial arts inside or outside or Japan. Just another view point to add to the discussion.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

**Jeff Burger** · 07-20-2006, 15:05

I went to a couple of Remy Presas seminars.
He was so good it was just silly.
Really nice guy too, his passing was a great loss to MAs.

Jeff

**Brian R. VanCise** · 07-20-2006, 15:11

Hey Jeff,

Yes Remy was simply incredible. He was even more incredible when you got to work with him one on one and he could do anything that he wanted to. Truly a great loss to the martial arts community.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

**Gene Williams** · 07-20-2006, 15:23

Originally Posted by Brian R. VanCise

Hey Gene glad to have you back.

However your quote above said ZNBK or Shihan board of an organization. If all you meant were ZNBK recognized ryu then you cannot claim that anyone else walking around with a 10th Dan is full of crap. The reason for this is that the ZNBK is just one small area of martial arts and their are many, many, many organizations whether Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc that do not fall under the ZNBK and some of them use Dan rankings.(rightly or wrongly)

If you were to say that anyone not pracitcing a ZNBK recognized martial art was full of crap if they had a 10th Dan then you definately could rightly have that opinion except that you have excluded probably 90 percent of the martial arts on the planet from your equation. I have no problem with exclusion if that is what you chose but you must understand that not everyone will share your opinion. (in the long haul it will always be a minority opinion) That is just my 02. for what it is worth!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

The "high dan" tradition is a Japanese/Okinawan one. There is a tight structure and specific guidelines, not to mention a long history and tradition of awarding them. That isn't to say that there isn't politics, nor that the ZNBK and shihan boards are perfect. But, it is to say that the title/rank doesn't really make any sense outside that structure. I guess, for Westerners, it is just a nice way to say, "Wow! He's good!"

The first time I ever heard a Westerner referred to as a 10th dan, I laughed. That was years ago when I was probably a shodan or something. Most karateka in the traditional ryu still laugh when we hear that. It is much like Westerners using the term "soke." It just doesn't make any sense, plus it is grandiose as Hell.

10th dan was never intended to reflect skill. It is an honorary award given to people like Kuniba, Hayashi, Otsuka and others who have spent a lifetime contributing to the martial arts. To associate it with simple skill (which should go without saying) is to cheapen it. So, rolling on the mat and choking people out really good and waving sticks really fast and doing some jujutsu type stuff with them really good doesn't make you a 10th dan. Like so much else in our Western ego centered, rank crazy society this has been bastardized, cheapened, and pretty well screwed up. I may take the skills of certain Western "masters" seriously (though most have been disappointing), but I do not take them seriously as 10th dan. Sort of like "Professors of the martial arts ...now THAT'S funny!

**Jeff Burger** · 07-20-2006, 15:26

Yes Remy was simply incredible. He was even more incredible when you got to work with him one on one and he could do anything that he wanted to.

Im jealous

**Brian R. VanCise** · 07-20-2006, 15:33

Hey Gene,

You get no argument from me that high Dan ranks and titles have been cheapened to the extreme. The only thing I think that you need to take into account some times is that the ZBKN and Japanese + Okinawan Karate ryu are a very small amount of the total martial arts in Japan as well as the rest of the world. Having said that I have met more of my fair share of over inflated, ego driven, rank chasing people and to be honest I just let them do their thing and stay away.

It is good though, that you are back to keep everyone honest and checking their egos at the door!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

**Tony Dismukes** · 07-20-2006, 16:39

It is an honorary award given to people like Kuniba, Hayashi, Otsuka and others who have spent a lifetime contributing to the martial arts.

Hmm ... I imagine quite a few folks would say that exactly describes the ranks of Helio Gracie and Remy Presas.

**starkjudo** · 07-20-2006, 16:43

Originally Posted by Gene Williams

10th dan was never intended to reflect skill. It is an honorary award given to people like Kuniba, Hayashi, Otsuka and others who have spent a lifetime contributing to the martial arts. To associate it with simple skill (which should go without saying) is to cheapen it. So, rolling on the mat and choking people out really good and waving sticks really fast and doing some jujutsu type stuff with them really good doesn't make you a 10th dan.

So, a lifetime of contribution to kicking and punching the air is more important than a lifetime of contribution rolling around on the mat or waving sticks really fast. Got it, I understand now

**Gene Williams** · 07-20-2006, 17:05

Tony and Rob, You are deliberately not getting it. I know that you two guys are quite intelligent and know far more about martial arts than I do, but IT IS A JAPANESE TRADITION. The rank makes no sense outside that tradition except as some arbitrary adaptation completely detached from context, history, and philosophy. It is like calling somebody "Captain" who has never been in the military, or calling me a doctor because I took a splinter out of someone's hand. Referring to people in just any old martial art as "10th dan" is part of what is wrong with the concept of "rank" that all you guys fuss about.

As far as "kicking and punching air" is concerned, you are only revealing your ignorance of karate and the training associated with it. Come go a round with some of my dan, or brown belts if you prefer. Better than that, come to a class and let's see what kind of physical condition you are in.