Size in Judo.

**JiuJitsuRabbit** · 08-02-2006, 09:11

I am really curious how Judo Players deal with size differences in sparring. With BJJ, I would usually ride a back mount(useless in judo, it leads to a stand up) or play guard(again going to lead to a stand up if I do not sweep very quickly).

The reason for the two mentioned positions, is I find I can control guys who are 220+ with my 155 frame, but with stand up this is entirely different. I have a world of trouble playing with anyone who has that weight advantage on me.

What usually ends up happening is when thrown, I attempt to roll them so I land in mount instead of getting ipponed. I attend Judo to learn throwing, not to fall well and do the same thing I do in BJJ. I undertand falling is a part of it. I just don't want to play newaza when I do that already 4 time a week else where. I want to learn to throw well.

The problem is now most of the people at my Judo club are much larger than I am and they muscle me hard. They charge and get very forceful, which I honestly consider rude since I am a total stand up beginner and they know this, and they ippon the hell out of me. One player in particular I believe takes personal offence that myself with a white belt in Judo, can submit him consistantly when we practice newaza. He is currently ranked at blue and I think he takes stand up randori as an oppertunity to blast me into the mat for punishment rather than actual sport. I get this impression, because he makes a habit out of charging me full force, getting grips screaming the entire time and giving a top of the lungs kiah as I fall. He does this with no one else...

Point being, I am learning practically nothing, since I have an amazing amount of trouble unbalancing these guys to get a shoulder throw. If it was Jiu-Jitsu rules it would be fine, because I would again jump guard or do some pull down to even the playing field, but under judo rules I am finding it diffucult please give some advice. As I would like to be compedative in the sport.

**Musubi Dojo** · 08-02-2006, 09:28

If you are shorter with a lower centre of gravity then you can set up some devestating shoulder throws.

If you feel like you're getting clobbered and not learning anything talk to the instructor and even the guy who's got his panties in a bunch because you can ground fight.

"Say something like, I'm a comlete Noob here and it's obvious you toss me around at will. Can you please show me what I'm doing wrong?"

I think it was Kano who said the best way to learn how to throw is to be thrown 1000 times (probably not all in the same night though

)

I'd also ask a lot of questions about the judo techniques on the gound instead of relying heavily on previous knowledge. The empty cup and all that. It also takes some of the fear out of insecure types.

If nothing changes find another club.

Cheers
c

**starkjudo** · 08-02-2006, 09:32

Talk to the instructor, barring that find another club. It sounds to be like people's egos are getting in the way far too much.

**CannibalCrowley** · 08-02-2006, 09:54

First off, I agree with the above post that you should talk to them about going a bit lighter in randori.

As for big guys who like to come forward:
footsweeps - best if you have long legs and a good sense of timing
drop seoi nage - remember to commit fully
tomoe nage - classic "he charged me" throw
hiza guruma
kibisu gaeshi - basically an ankle pick

These may not work for everyone; but they're my choice throws for guys who are bigger and like to press forward.

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuRabbit

Point being, I am learning practically nothing, since I have an amazing amount of trouble unbalancing these guys to get a shoulder throw.

If they're charging forward as you say, then they're already off balance.

What throws do they catch you with the most?

How is your grip fighting?

**JiuJitsuRabbit** · 08-02-2006, 11:45

Originally Posted by CannibalCrowley

If they're charging forward as you say, then they're already off balance.

What throws do they catch you with the most?

How is your grip fighting?

If its a throw relating to judo, I am a total newb. All I know is I am usually airborne and out of habbit I tend to grab guard mid air and bring them down with me, which often lead to ippon. I know throws, I know take downs, I just do not know how to compete with in the bounds of judo and the dreaded Ippon.

From what I remember before impact, he has a standard grip. One hard on my elbow the other on my lapel, and he is doing a combo with foot sweeps. Inside trips and osoto-gari? I am not terribly sure.

I am not terribly worried about his attitude and beating me to a pulp, I just need to figure out what throws work in this situation.

The main problems are:

His arms are longer and I am not breaking his stiff arm.

He can throw me off balance from sheer ability to pick me up.

As I am scrambling to keep my feet, he foot sweeps me.

**Steve Wright** · 08-02-2006, 12:13

My coach weighs in at about 145 soaking wet. He is one of the most difficult people to throw that I know. Even when we work out at other clubs with guys weighing in at around 220-275. All these big guys marvel at their own lack of ability to throw this little guy. He always says that the best way to learn is to allow yourself to get thrown. He worked out at the OTC 20-25 years ago and continually got trounced by those guys. He said it got him over his fear of being thrown real quick which translated into him not being afraid to committ to throwing. Also... relax. If the big guys are trying to drive into/through the mat they are possibly relying on power only. Don't resist them. Just relax and slide around the mat with them. If you get thrown, great!!! Work on using your hips to get a good possition, a better possition than your partner. That may not mean throwing them, possibly just avoiding their throws. Don't bend over or hold them out at arms length. Good posture, relax, push your hips forward/into your partner and see what happens. Do a Google search for some of the old Mifune videos that are floating around. That is what you are wanting.

**JiuJitsuRabbit** · 08-02-2006, 12:17

Originally Posted by Steve Wright

My coach weighs in at about 145 soaking wet. He is one of the most difficult people to throw that I know. Even when we work out at other clubs with guys weighing in at around 220-275. All these big guys marvel at their own lack of ability to throw this little guy. He always says that the best way to learn is to allow yourself to get thrown. He worked out at the OTC 20-25 years ago and continually got trounced by those guys. He said it got him over his fear of being thrown real quick which translated into him not being afraid to committ to throwing. Also... relax. If the big guys are trying to drive into/through the mat they are possibly relying on power only. Don't resist them. Just relax and slide around the mat with them. If you get thrown, great!!! Work on using your hips to get a good possition, a better possition than your partner. That may not mean throwing them, possibly just avoiding their throws. Don't bend over or hold them out at arms length. Good posture, relax, push your hips forward/into your partner and see what happens. Do a Google search for some of the old Mifune videos that are floating around. That is what you are wanting.

It appears I shall need a private lesson for proper stance and grip training.

I know throws, I am just not having a very good time at execution.

**CannibalCrowley** · 08-02-2006, 13:06

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuRabbit

I know throws, I know take downs, I just do not know how to compete with in the bounds of judo and the dreaded Ippon.

Except for the scoring of ippons and not pulling guard, the standup portion by itself is pretty similar between Judo and BJJ. A throw or takedown that works in BJJ will usually work in Judo. It may not score an ippon; but it will score.

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuRabbit

His arms are longer and I am not breaking his stiff arm.

Don't worry about breaking it, that's just playing is game. Attack under or around the arm. With the exception of sweeps, the throws I listed above will all work against a stiff arm. If you don't know what they are, Google the names to get a description as well as asking someone in your club to teach you a few. Except for the ankle pick they're very common throws.

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuRabbit

He can throw me off balance from sheer ability to pick me up.

Stick to the outside so he can't get the leverage to do so. Only enter to throw or feint. It's sort of like boxing, you want to stick and move with a big guy instead of standing toe to toe and slugging it out.

**JiuJitsuRabbit** · 08-02-2006, 13:36

Most of the throws I use are from a side control or where I fall back and use my feet to sweep you mid air.

I was under the impression that these were looked down upon or would cause me to lose because i was ipponing myself.

edit: After looking up judo names for things I do, here is my list of favorite throws.

Hikikomi Gaeshi

Koshi Guruma

Kosoto Gake

Sumi Gaeshi

I didn't think most of those were kosher :P

**Steve Wright** · 08-02-2006, 18:32

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuRabbit

It appears I shall need a private lesson for proper stance and grip training.

I know throws, I am just not having a very good time at execution.

Geeez... no insult was meant. You asked about how to deal with size differences. Was just trying to give some ideas.

**Matthew Jones** · 08-02-2006, 18:55

There is knowing throws and KNOWING throws. I can do lots of different throws in uchikomi, I know their names, I've seen my instructor do them to me and others, I've even watched some dude in the olympics do the technique. How does that translate to randori, s**t all. I would suggest that you just keep attacking and trying to get those throws. I still can't do them against the senior guys but the other day I was hitting them almost at-will against a noob. So I must be getting better, even though I spend more time upside down than on my feet.

**Abbax8** · 08-02-2006, 19:39

35 years and 110 lbs ago I was 160 lbs - my fighting weight stayed at 160 to 165. We had two big strong guys in our club , one was 230 , the other 305. When we fought I was like a babe to them. What worked was to stay up straight and very light on my feet. If they pushed or pulled I went with them just not exactly the way they wanted me to go. Somewhere during this dance I would look for a chance to spin in under at speed (I was much faster than either of them). My two favorite throws were Harai-Goshi and Seoi-Nage, if they pulled back hard I shot O-Soto-Gari or O-Uchi-Gari. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Sometimes it really hurt so good.

Peace

Dennis

**JiuJitsuRabbit** · 08-02-2006, 22:38

Originally Posted by Steve Wright

Geeez... no insult was meant. You asked about how to deal with size differences. Was just trying to give some ideas.

I didn't take it as an insult. I am totally serious. I believe my grips are totally lacking and I honestly believe I need some one on one time with someone who is skilled at Judo.

I know throws, but my set ups are very lacking and my grip fighting is lacking. After reading all the wonderful advice in the thread this is the conclusion that I reached.

**JiuJitsuRabbit** · 08-02-2006, 22:40

Small question on rules.

In this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...2921273&q=judo

Shouldn't the guy in blue have been penalized for not attempting any throws? If you enter a Judo throw, go for ippon. If you want to tap go to a submission tournement.

I am honestly irritated that the BJJ won, in the manner which he did.

**CannibalCrowley** · 08-02-2006, 23:38

That clip was all messed up. The ref was horrible and the mats were tiny. I'd chalk that one up as being one of those small foreign tournaments where you can get away with a lot more than you could anywhere else.

If it wasn't for the long pants I would have thought it could be a Sambo match

**Abbax8** · 08-03-2006, 08:20

The guy in the white gi should have put his shin acrosss the back/neck of the blue gi in the first two attempts. In the other attacks where he dropped for Sankaku - pick them up to get matte, this happened once or twice.

The blue gi has a good ground game but I saw no standup.

Peace

Dennis

**JiuJitsuRabbit** · 08-03-2006, 08:30

Originally Posted by Abbax8

The guy in the white gi should have put his shin acrosss the back/neck of the blue gi in the first two attempts. In the other attacks where he dropped for Sankaku - pick them up to get matte, this happened once or twice.

The blue gi has a good ground game but I saw no standup.

Peace

Dennis

That is what I though, so should he have been penalized? If so, how so?