Briefly, what is the difference between Tang Soo Doo and ITF oriented TKD

[cussinklaus]

I'm a 2nd Gup TKD guy and was wondering. Are there TSD techniques, strikes not in TKD. What are the differences in styles?

[Eliz]

I'm a 2nd Gup TKD guy and was wondering. Are there TSD techniques, strikes not in TKD. What are the differences in styles?

Great question. I have wondered the same myself.

Seems there are different forms and certainly individual histories, but many of the basics seem the same to me as well.

I study a HKD that is VERY different than TKD in application, but I have never been exposed to TSD that is different in application. Perhaps my own education is lacking - I wouldn't be the least bit suprised.

[WMKS Shogun]

I have studied both arts and do not claim mastery in either, I think I can e of at least a little help here. First, the obvious difference: forms. Tang Soo Do Hyungs were taken from Japanese Shotokan forms essentially move for move. In certain cases the execution and thus application would change between Shotokan and Tang Soo Do, but by and large, the same. (Please do not flame me on this karate guys, I know there are some difference, but I am saying in general). Gen. Choi, founder of ITF TKD studied, if memory serves me correctly, Shotokan, during the Japanese occupation of Korea. During the post-occupation period (mid to late 1940's) it was decided that all the different kwans should band together under one name to create a national martial art. A council of masters was held and the founders eventually settled on the name Taekwon Do. At first, the newly formed TKD still taught the old Japanese Shotokan forms. However, in an attempt to purge all non-Koreanness (I think I just made up a word) from this 'new' art, new forms were created. These were the Chang-Hon forms (Chun Ji, Dan Gun, Do San, etc.). The Chang Hon forms were a step away from the Shotokan forms, though still kept several of the same offensive and defensive movement patterns, just placed at different places within the forms.
Apart from the forms, the ITF is notorious for the use of the 'Sine Wave" motion. This is the bouncy motion that can be observed during most moves with the ITF forms. The idea behind this is that the downward motion which occurs during blocks, strikes, and kicks brings gravity on the side of the practicioner and helps them to settle the weight. Tang Soo Do stylists typically keep their motions level and use more sliding movements rather than the bouncing/stepping of the ITF TKD stylists.
This pretty much goes without saying, but some of the chambering for certain moves varies. As far as moves taught in one, but not in the other, offhand, I cannot think of any moves that are taught in one style that are not taught in the other, though I will admit that both my TSD and TKD training were not 'pure,' both had been Americanized somewhat. To my credit I have worked out and trained with both pure TKD and pure TSD practicioners and with the exceptions noted above, I found the kicks, blocks, strikes, etc. to be mostly similar. I hope this helps, and I am looking forward to having more experienced people than myself help me to see what other differences do exist.

[BD2021]

I personally am only a 6th gup in TSD so i claim to be an expert on absolutely nothing. The history described above is different than the one that i found when i tried to learn the history of TSD. What I learned from that knowledge quest was basically this, it really depends on who you talk to as to the history, it is a highly debatable topic and people disagree on many points. Some say its all based on Shotokan, others say its mostly based on what was passed down between fathers and their children durring the japanese occupation of a korean art that had already existed. It also seems to depend on what type of TKD or TSD that you are studying as well. This may be the way it is or not, just what i got from my searchings.

[Enyu]

I've never practiced Tang Soo Do, but I at least know that many of the TKD kwans used to call their art either Tang Soo Do, or Kong Soo Do (karate-do in korean), so that would explain the similarity.

[BD2021]

I've never practiced Tang Soo Do, but I at least know that many of the TKD kwans used to call their art either Tang Soo Do, or Kong Soo Do (karate-do in korean), so that would explain the similarity.

Actually if I remember correctly they ALL stemmed from Soo Bak Do (sp?), but even that's origin is of some debate as to whether it was korean or japanese.

[CDunn]

As mentioned, the primary differences are political. During the unification period of Tae Kwon Do, the Moo Duk Kwan and I believe elements of the Ji Do Kwan resisted the unification efforts. These elements formed what is now Tang Soo Do. All TKD / TSD has at least some rooting in Shotokan karate - The only founder of the original kwans that did not hold dan rank from Japan was the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan, Hwang Kee. (As an aside, stories of where Hwang got his art, which he originally called Hwa Soo Do, vary. I don't know what to believe.) The effects of the old sport of Taekkyon on TKD and TSD are debateable, but none of the kwan founders had formal experience with Taekkyon. Hwang Kee claimed to know some of it, however, he also told the story of being rejected for training by a Taekkyon master beause of his youth at the time. Whatever he knew was strictly from observation. It is possible that stories of Taekkyon helped shape TKD and TSD into the kicking focus we see today, not because the art was created to support it, but rather, the first few generations of students wanted to kick, so they kicked.

Forms within the Moo Duk Kwan, and its splinters, which is the vast majority of TSD afaik, come in two varities, the old Shotokan forms, reputedly from a book the Kwan Jang Nim found during his employment on the Manchurian railroad, and the forms designed by KJN Hwang Kee, reputedly drawing from the Moo Ye To Bo Tongji. Excepting the beginner's forms, the Gicho Hyung, the these forms are mostly dan forms, and are known for being softer, more internal forms.

Largely, the techniques are similar, except for the aforementioned chambering differences. Many of the 'sport' adaptations are missing from TSD as well. I'm lead to understand that one of the the largest individual technique differences is in doll ryo chagi, which in TSD is immediately rechambered once it reaches extension, rather than continuing through the target and down to the floor. It is not uncommon to practice an excercise where round kicks of several different heights are executed without setting the foot back to the ground, that is, lift to chamber, kick, chamber, kick, chamber, kick, chamber, foot down. Jokes and intar-web fame aside, Kwan Jang Nim Norris tends to be a well documented example of this kind of round kick, though it's intended as a single strike, not one out, one back.

Soo Bahk Do is the name that Hwang Kee started to call his art after beginning to integrate some of the principles he found in the MYTBJ. Nothing is descended from it.

[cussinklaus]

I have studied both arts and do not claim mastery in either, I think I can e of at least a little help here. First, the obvious difference: forms. Tang Soo Do Hyungs were taken from Japanese Shotokan forms essentially move for move. In certain cases the execution and thus application would change between Shotokan and Tang Soo Do, but by and large, the same. (Please do not flame me on this karate guys, I know there are some difference, but I am saying in general). Gen. Choi, founder of ITF TKD studied, if memory serves me correctly, Shotokan, during the Japanese occupation of Korea. During the post-occupation period (mid to late 1940's) it was decided that all the different kwans should band together under one name to create a national martial art. A council of masters was held and the founders eventually settled on the name Taekwon Do. At first, the newly formed TKD still taught the old Japanese Shotokan forms. However, in an attempt to purge all non-Koreanness (I think I just made up a word) from this 'new' art, new forms were created. These were the Chang-Hon forms (Chun Ji, Dan Gun, Do San, etc.). The Chang Hon forms were a step away from the Shotokan forms, though still kept several of the same offensive and defensive movement patterns, just placed at different places within the forms.
Apart from the forms, the ITF is notorious for the use of the 'Sine Wave" motion. This is the bouncy motion that can be observed during most moves with the ITF forms. The idea behind this is that the downward motion which occurs during blocks, strikes, and kicks brings gravity on the side of the practicioner and helps them to settle the weight. Tang Soo Do stylists typically keep their motions level and use more sliding movements rather than the bouncing/stepping of the ITF TKD stylists.
This pretty much goes without saying, but some of the chambering for certain moves varies. As far as moves taught in one, but not in the other, offhand, I cannot think of any moves that are taught in one style that are not taught in the other, though I will admit that both my TSD and TKD training were not 'pure,' both had been Americanized somewhat. To my credit I have worked out and trained with both pure TKD and pure TSD practicioners and with the exceptions noted above, I found the kicks, blocks, strikes, etc. to be mostly similar. I hope this helps, and I am looking forward to having more experienced people than myself help me to see what other differences do exist.

For what it's worth, my master is Moo Duk Kwan ITF and I have never heard of this bouncy "sine wave" stuff. My old instructor from when I was in highschool called what he was teaching "Moo Duk Kwan Karate" and the only form which was the same as my current TKD forms was Chun-Gi. From what you were saying I think he was Tang Soo Doo because the stances were all very wide and most of the strikes were forward motion rather than "reverse" strikes. Some of the instructors at my school call my style "Japanese" or "karate" oriented, sometimes critically, sometimes completentary. Someday I'm gonna have to try Shotokan (maybe after I get Dan level at my current school, no mean feat).

[CDunn]

For what it's worth, my master is Moo Duk Kwan ITF and I have never heard of this bouncy "sine wave" stuff. My old instructor from when I was in highschool called what he was teaching "Moo Duk Kwan Karate" and the only form which was the same as my current TKD forms was Chun-Gi. From what you were saying I think he was Tang Soo Doo because the stances were all very wide and most of the strikes were forward motion rather than "reverse" strikes. Some of the instructors at my school call my style "Japanese" or "karate" oriented, sometimes critically, sometimes completentary. Someday I'm gonna have to try Shotokan (maybe after I get Dan level at my current school, no mean feat).

The traditional form order for the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do underbelts is:

Gicho Hyung Il Bu
Gicho Hyung E Bu
Gicho Hyung Sam Bu
Pyung Ahn Cho Dan
Pyung Ahn E Dan
Pyung Ahn Sam Dan
Pyung Ahn Sa Dan
Pyung Ahn O Dan
Bassai So
Bassai Dai
Nahanchi Cho Dan

Look familiar at all? Variations in the direction of what the Kukkiwon or ITF teaches happen depending on how badly the Korean government got to the individual instructors, many Korean teachers decided eating was more important than the Tang Soo Do names and forms, and adopted various degrees of the officially sanctioned names and forms at various times.

[WMKS Shogun]

The Pyung Ahn Forms are based off the Pinan kata of Japan (Heian of Okinawa), Bassai So and Dai are Bassai Sho and Dai (Sho means lesser/smaller and Dai means greater/bigger in japanese). Nahanchi is the Japanese Nihanchin (Tekki for okinawan). As to Hwang Kee not holding Dan Rank in a Japanese style, I do not know.
And I will profess right now that I have NO knowledge whatsoever about exactly what MDK ITF teaches. (When I said ITF in the above post, it stood for International Taekwon Do Federation, the federation started by Gen. Choi), if this was not what was meant by Michael, disregard that post. I personally find it odd that the MDK (founded by Hwang Kee) would ever allow the name TKD to be put on their foundation. The only thing I can think of is if a group of TKD instructors wanted to go back to their roots when Gen. Choi was exiled from Korea, so rather than join with the newly formed World Taekwondo Federation, they joined with the MDK which as someone pointed out teaches Tang Soo Do, renamed as Soo Bahk Do. The reason for this was all the instructors chosing to teach only part of the art and leaving other parts out, or changing the forms, etc. So in order to have the art as it was preserved, Hwang Kee went back and called all instructors loyal to the MDK to follow his standardized curriculum. Hwang Kee supposedly studied in China for awhile. It is said that he brought back some of the 'flavor' of the Chinese martial arts. This softer, more flowing Chinese movements are evident in Hwang Kee's Chil Sung Forms (which are part of Soo Bahk Do, but many Tang Soo Do schools do not teach them). Well, I have rambled enough. Have at it!

[CDunn]

And I will profess right now that I have NO knowledge whatsoever about exactly what MDK ITF teaches. (When I said ITF in the above post, it stood for International Taekwon Do Federation, the federation started by Gen. Choi), if this was not what was meant by Michael, disregard that post. I personally find it odd that the MDK (founded by Hwang Kee) would ever allow the name TKD to be put on their foundation. The only thing I can think of is if a group of TKD instructors wanted to go back to their roots when Gen. Choi was exiled from Korea, so rather than join with the newly formed World Taekwondo Federation, they joined with the MDK which as someone pointed out teaches Tang Soo Do, renamed as Soo Bahk Do. The reason for this was all the instructors chosing to teach only part of the art and leaving other parts out, or changing the forms, etc. So in order to have the art as it was preserved, Hwang Kee went back and called all instructors loyal to the MDK to follow his standardized curriculum. Hwang Kee supposedly studied in China for awhile. It is said that he brought back some of the 'flavor' of the Chinese martial arts. This softer, more flowing Chinese movements are evident in Hwang Kee's Chil Sung Forms (which are part of Soo Bahk Do, but many Tang Soo Do schools do not teach them). Well, I have rambled enough. Have at it!

It goes the other way around, actually. When WTF was formed, the Korean government gave MDK instructors the following choices: Teach Tae Kwon Do or teach nothing at all. Many instructors chose to teach the TKD Curriculum, and held on to the Moo Duk Kwan name, although the Kwan has officially disowned them - By declaration, there is only one Moo Duk Kwan, under Hwang J.C., and it teaches only Soo Bahk Do. MDK TKD is then the fragments of what was taught by the MDK teachers in Korea that were forced to teach TKD by the government, before the idea of the Kukkiwon steamrolled the TKD kwans out of existance.

[WMKS Shogun]

I see. I knew about MDK teaching only Soo Bahk Do, though I have heard of several schools using the MDK name (illegally, as I understand it).
Though Michael, you talked about MDK ITF. What forms does MDK ITF teach and does ITF stand for International Taekwon Do Federation?

[rouse]

It seems to me that there are as many takes on this subject, as the number of answers continue to grow.

It really boils down to a very basic question. Those folks in the Moo Duk Kwan that were for unification of the Kwans, and those that were against unification.

Kwang Kee was ultimately against, and Hong Chong Soo and others were for unification.

The Unification effort was considered a matter of National Pride. You must under stand that Korea was less than ten years past Japanese occupation followed by a gut wrenching war with the Chinese backed North Koreans.

Despite every effort on the part of Hong, Chong Soo and others to persuade Kwang Kee to join the unification of the Kwans, he ultimately refused. His refusal resulted in the split of the Moo Duk Kwan.

Did this make anyone on either side of the issue the bad guy? No!!!
The older higher rank Moo Duk Kwan members understand the motives on both sides of this issue, and for the most part hold each other in highest regard and respect, even celebrating the founding anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan together.

Does this mean that some day the Moo Duk Kwan will ever reunite? Only time will tell. Don't hold your breath.
Johnnie Rouse

[cussinklaus]

The Pyung Ahn Forms are based off the Pinan kata of Japan (Heian of Okinawa), Bassai So and Dai are Bassai Sho and Dai (Sho means lesser/smaller and Dai means greater/bigger in japanese). Nahanchi is the Japanese Nihanchin (Tekki for okinawan). As to Hwang Kee not holding Dan Rank in a Japanese style, I do not know.
And I will profess right now that I have NO knowledge whatsoever about exactly what MDK ITF teaches. (When I said ITF in the above post, it stood for International Taekwon Do Federation, the federation started by Gen. Choi), if this was not what was meant by Michael, disregard that post. I personally find it odd that the MDK (founded by Hwang Kee) would ever allow the name TKD to be put on their foundation. The only thing I can think of is if a group of TKD instructors wanted to go back to their roots when Gen. Choi was exiled from Korea, so rather than join with the newly formed World Taekwondo Federation, they joined with the MDK which as someone pointed out teaches Tang Soo Do, renamed as Soo Bahk Do. The reason for this was all the instructors chosing to teach only part of the art and leaving other parts out, or changing the forms, etc. So in order to have the art as it was preserved, Hwang Kee went back and called all instructors loyal to the MDK to follow his standardized curriculum. Hwang Kee supposedly studied in China for awhile. It is said that he brought back some of the 'flavor' of the Chinese martial arts. This softer, more flowing Chinese movements are evident in Hwang Kee's Chil Sung Forms (which are part of Soo Bahk Do, but many Tang Soo Do schools do not teach them). Well, I have rambled enough. Have at it!

My master refers to what he teaches as Moo-Duk Kwan but we do all the ITF forms and pretty much have the same belt system. He is also 6th Dan in Aikido. His grandmasters were Grandmaster Ahn Young Kim, head of the Chang Moo Kwon School in Seoul Korea and Grandmaster Ho Soo Hwang; not sure if you know those names. Not sure if it's cool to post links; if it is I'll post the URL of the school's website.

[WMKS Shogun]

In this case, I think it is okay. We know you are not spamming the board with it. (If a moderator corrects me on this, obviously, listen to them.) On the Sine Wave thing, I think that developed later on in ITF's development, hense some of the earlier instructors in America do not teach it. Jhoon Rhee, the first recorded TKD instructor in the USA, at one point in time taught the Chang Hon Forms, though as I understand it, without the Sine Wave. I know my school, and several others in the area teach the Chang Hon forms, though none of them teach the pure ITF way, so none do the Sine Wave. Anyway, this is my stuff for now. Digest well, and if anyone finds anything wrong with it...shut up! I am happy with my ignorance! JUST KIDDING. Please correct me if I have made any mistakes.

[rouse]

I really don't "get"the Sine Wave thing. what is that about, I've seen it, just don't "get" it.
Johnnie Rouse

[Dale Lackey]

The Pyung Ahn Forms are based off the Pinan kata of Japan (Heian of Okinawa), Bassai So and Dai are Bassai Sho and Dai (Sho means lesser/smaller and Dai means greater/bigger in japanese). Nahanchi is the Japanese Nihanchin (Tekki for okinawan).

You have the okinawan and japanese names backwards, like it matters too much.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

I really don't "get"the Sine Wave thing. what is that about, I've seen it, just don't "get" it.
Johnnie Rouse

Maybe a TKD student can add a bit more background to my explanation but basically the rise and fall of the sine wave motion allows you to use gravity to increase the power of your strikes and blocks. In preparation for your technique you rise up so increasing your potential energy, and when you perform your technique you drop down using gravity to your advantage.

If you learn hip tourque correctly you can do the same thing with your hips (and obviously the rest of your body follows) but the timing is a bit different.

[Da-RiSiN-sMoKe]

I believe it's mostly the same, but TKD is mostly sport and breaking and TSD focuses more on Self-defense.

It seems, that Korean TKD and USA oriented TKD are A LOT different.