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    Default Thoughts on Body Hardening

    My friend and I do several forms of body hardening (Abdomin, Forearms, theighs, chest, and upper arms). Body hardening works of of Wolf's Law : You cause constant trauma to a certain spot fracturing the bones stimulating the regrowing of the bones over the former ones. Does anyone think it is a waist of time. Please give me your thoughts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumbling Vagabond
    My friend and I do several forms of body hardening (Abdomin, Forearms, theighs, chest, and upper arms). Body hardening works of of Wolf's Law : You cause constant trauma to a certain spot fracturing the bones stimulating the regrowing of the bones over the former ones. Does anyone think it is a waist of time. Please give me your thoughts.

    I haven't practiced this myself however from my understanding body hardening can be an important part of training depending on what you take. I have had a few friends who have used body hardeing techniques for arts like Muay Thai. It allows them to take more severe hits and stay on there feet then if they hadn't trained like this (my philosophy is simply don't get hit). However I have also been warned to be careful when doing it as you can likely do to much damage or cause "bone bruises" (of which I have more then a few) that can cause some pretty bad discomfort and almost never go away.
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    When fighting or sparring with heavy contact the one who has conditioned their body will enjoy certain advantages. I like the look in an opponent's eyes when he hits me really hard and hurts himself...I don't take pleasure in hurting people but its cool to see the results of hard work.
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    Someone that practice body hardening is definitely going to have an advantage in certain arts such as karate or striking arts. Obviously he is going to hit harder and will be able to take hits much more than somone that hasn't gone through that training. However, at what cost? My shihan shows me his huge fist from when he used to practice karate traditionally in Japan and tells me its unnecessary, especially since he has a hard time typing on the keyboard now, among other things. If you're doing something that doesn't need body hardening such as Aikido or Jujutsu, it'd be a waste of time because you can use the time to do other things.

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    Member GodofGamblers's Avatar
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    Dude, I don't think it's worth it. You are working on too many parts of your body. Chest hardening? You are obviously not hardening your sternum, and I don't think you can harden the muscles.

    Remember that some kung fu styles use 'soft' blocking systems which are just as effective as hard ones. Instead of punishing the attacking arm by blocking with the forearm (bone on bone), try blocking with the inside of the forearm, with the muscle. You will find that this block is just as effective and less painful. It is faster in any case.

    Make sure you don't do bone and/or nerve damage.

    As for hard hardening, don't do it with a friend but with someone who knows how. Some is ok. Knuckle push-ups, heavy bag, makiwara, these have been discussed quite often on budoseek.

    In many of these exercises, it is actually the wrists that are being strengthened. The actual hardness of the knuckles is important to an extent, but without strong wrists you can't hit a heavy bag or do a good body punch.... True, some guys can punch a wall full power and not get hurt... but who wants to punch a wall??! For what reason other than a party trick?

    just some things to consider...

    K

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    Member Dale Lackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumbling Vagabond
    My friend and I do several forms of body hardening (Abdomin, Forearms, theighs, chest, and upper arms). Body hardening works of of Wolf's Law : You cause constant trauma to a certain spot fracturing the bones stimulating the regrowing of the bones over the former ones. Does anyone think it is a waist of time. Please give me your thoughts.
    Are you really fracturing bones? That seems pretty extreme considering, and I have never even heard of that. The body will toughen the skin, tendons, and I guess even muscles with prolong exposure to trauma, but you need to do it properly and have plenty of recover time, etc. Your bones will naturally thicken and harden just by exercising, but that way takes much longer.
    Dale Lackey

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    I'm not a doctor, but this seems a little extreme, if you are actually systematically fracturing your bones for conditioning.

    If the aim of the conditioning is to avoid getting hurt badly in the conditioned areas, and your method is hurting yourself badly in those areas, the whole practice seems somewhat pointless.

    Doing very minor, passing injury to a bodypart repeatedly over time, thus building up tolerance over time, is my idea of conditioning.
    John Pratt

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    For the muscle hardening it is just deadening the nerves.

    Wolf's Law
    A theory developed by the German Anatomist/Surgeon Julius Wolff (1835-1902) in the 19th century that states that bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will be adapted and become weaker.

    Your bones are like a string bean, with little pods of air, you break the pods into eachother so your bone makes smaller pods with extra layers of bones.
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    I googled for "Wolf's Law" and came up with very little real information on the notion, which would suggest it isn't widely accepted. So the I googled bone stengthening and found most of the reputible stuff stated that weight training would be the best way to make bones stronger.

    For the muscle hardening it is just deadening the nerves.
    Agreed. Sounds like the fast track to doing permanent damage.

    Wolf's Law
    A theory developed by the German Anatomist/Surgeon Julius Wolff (1835-1902) in the 19th century that states that bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will be adapted and become weaker.
    There is a pretty big difference between placing a load on your bone, and having your friend smack you repeatedly in the chest.


    Your bones are like a string bean, with little pods of air, you break the pods into eachother so your bone makes smaller pods with extra layers of bones.
    This makes no sense to me, and I'll wager that this simply does not occur.


    I don't disagree that you can condition the body to withstand harder trauma, but I don't think it has anything to do with "bone hardening" or the work of a Doctor over 100 years ago. There is a reason Doctors don't practice medicine today the way they did a century ago.... we've learned a few things since then.
    - Jamie Ziegler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumbling Vagabond
    My friend and I do several forms of body hardening (Abdomin, Forearms, theighs, chest, and upper arms). Body hardening works of of Wolf's Law : You cause constant trauma to a certain spot fracturing the bones stimulating the regrowing of the bones over the former ones. Does anyone think it is a waist of time. Please give me your thoughts.
    All right I feel, as I should respond.

    STOP WHAT YOU"RE DOING IMMEDIATELY!

    Before you continue, first, find the right information about trauma/strength, conditioning, and Wolf’s law isn’t it. You start deadening nerves; you're in for some permanent possibly irreversible damage.
    Second, once you have the right information, find a qualified instructor to teach you these things. Do not try this on you're own.

    Thirdly, this is based on my opinion only, you're average person is not conditioned to get hit, physically or psychologically. Extreme conditioning is not needed. Also I would work the psychological first. That is the ability to get hit without flinching, stopping or retreating. This can easily be accomplished with some good sparring. AGAIN, with a qualified instructor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antares33
    I googled for "Wolf's Law" and came up with very little real information on the notion, which would suggest it isn't widely accepted. So the I googled bone stengthening and found most of the reputible stuff stated that weight training would be the best way to make bones stronger.



    Agreed. Sounds like the fast track to doing permanent damage.



    There is a pretty big difference between placing a load on your bone, and having your friend smack you repeatedly in the chest.




    This makes no sense to me, and I'll wager that this simply does not occur.


    I don't disagree that you can condition the body to withstand harder trauma, but I don't think it has anything to do with "bone hardening" or the work of a Doctor over 100 years ago. There is a reason Doctors don't practice medicine today the way they did a century ago.... we've learned a few things since then.

    Yes, it is on Wikipedia. I knew about it before I watched the fight science program, bnut I am afraid it is actual. Like someone else said you have to do it properly. It is more than me just getting smacked in the chest. We learn the hit with our forearms and cause lesss pain. Muay Thai practices body hardening.
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    I've been busy, so I'm just catching up on this thread. There seem to be some health concerns coming up, so I'm going to move this over to the Health and Fitness forum.

    There will be a re-direct link from GMA.

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    Patrick,
    You asked for advice and were given some reasonable responses. You don't seem willing to listen though. The whole thing sounds silly, pointless and dangerous to me. It won't make you a better fighter. If you spent the time you are spending now on hardening on good fight training you'd have much better results, believe me. A few of the guys you've gotten advice from have been doing this since you were wetting your diapers. We've seen it before many times. I was 18 once too. I remember I thought I knew everything then. Quit now, your joints will thank you when you get my age.
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    I'm not a doctor or a physiologist but I have done my fair share of reading on how the body handles trauma. I have also seen the results as few others get to see it. When a bone is injured, the body heals it by laying down new calcium. Do it often enough and you will get extra calcium built up over the years. I have seen the results many times in my work at an institution. Many of our patients exhibit head banging behavior, punching a table top surface, or hitting other body parts. One individual's front 3 knuckles are about 3 times normal sized and fused. One has a tennis ball size bump or his forehead. Another has scar tissue over most of his head with ragged bumps of calcium deposits.

    Have you eve heard of the word arthritis. This is the end result of such activity. The other problem is that constant fractures in an area can not only cause extra calcium buildup, but also deformed growth with bones growing in the wrong direction. Do that to your foot and leg and you will have back problems the rest of your life.

    There are much safer ways to get increased bone density, weight lifting is the best one. There are safer ways to deal with the shock of being hit, sparring under qualified guidance is best. Both have been suggested. Do yourself a huge favor and learn the easy way, from other peoples mistakes and experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleouch
    Patrick,
    You asked for advice and were given some reasonable responses. You don't seem willing to listen though. The whole thing sounds silly, pointless and dangerous to me. It won't make you a better fighter. If you spent the time you are spending now on hardening on good fight training you'd have much better results, believe me. A few of the guys you've gotten advice from have been doing this since you were wetting your diapers. We've seen it before many times. I was 18 once too. I remember I thought I knew everything then. Quit now, your joints will thank you when you get my age.
    Do not think that I am not listening. I listened to Tony and have stopped. We simply do actual contact sparring now. I know I can be very stead fast in my beliefs and do not think I realize these guys have been doing it a lot longer than me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbax8
    I'm not a doctor or a physiologist but I have done my fair share of reading on how the body handles trauma. I have also seen the results as few others get to see it. When a bone is injured, the body heals it by laying down new calcium. Do it often enough and you will get extra calcium built up over the years. I have seen the results many times in my work at an institution. Many of our patients exhibit head banging behavior, punching a table top surface, or hitting other body parts. One individual's front 3 knuckles are about 3 times normal sized and fused. One has a tennis ball size bump or his forehead. Another has scar tissue over most of his head with ragged bumps of calcium deposits.

    Have you eve heard of the word arthritis. This is the end result of such activity. The other problem is that constant fractures in an area can not only cause extra calcium buildup, but also deformed growth with bones growing in the wrong direction. Do that to your foot and leg and you will have back problems the rest of your life.

    There are much safer ways to get increased bone density, weight lifting is the best one. There are safer ways to deal with the shock of being hit, sparring under qualified guidance is best. Both have been suggested. Do yourself a huge favor and learn the easy way, from other peoples mistakes and experience.

    Peace

    Dennis

    Ok, the main thing was I just realized it hurt when I kicked, so I tried to figure out a way to make it so it didn't hurt. This works. I used a 100 lbs heavy bag and just kicked with my shins. I do lift weights, will squats and power cleans help with my shins though. I will take everyones advice, I apologize if I came off as arrogant I just wanted to make sure there was no misunderstanding on my part.
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    Sounds like you are on a much better track Patrick. Good luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumbling Vagabond
    I do lift weights, will squats and power cleans help with my shins though.
    Exercise has been shown to be the most effective and safest way to improve bone density, which is exactly why they recommend it as a preventative measure against bone diseases such as osteoporosis.

    The key thing to remember is that increase in bone density for a particular region requires that region to be weight bearing when performing an exercise.

    When doing squats, for example, the actual lifting and weight bearing is mostly done by the legs, ergo an increase in density of the femur, tibia, and fibular, as well as the hip joints.

    Other exercises which are proven to be beneficial include exercises involving running and jumping, especially when combined with weight bearing exercises. The most beneficial exercise patterns are those which use relatively short, intense bursts of energy (going for a 20 minute run is more effective than a 1 hour walk)

    I guess this could be one positive argument on the side of doing forms - especially wushu style forms with low stances and jumping around, but I'm sure there are equally effective ways

    (information was taken from the Osteoporosis Australia website).

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    I engage in parkour quite a bit, maybe that will help but what about my shins, any way I can help build bone density on them other than placing weight on them?
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    Member GodofGamblers's Avatar
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    There is a way; I saw a guy on TV once show how he conditioned his shins until he could break baseball bats with a 'shin' front kick.

    I thought it was fake, but I have since seen other people advocating the same training method as on this show.

    He simply used a rolling pin, rolling it up and down his shins. He explained that it is not to harden the bone but the muscle tissue there. He had a special name for it that escapes me now (fibria? some type of soft muscle tissue).

    After a while he used a textured rolling pin with tiny indentations on it and on to progressively rougher surfaces.

    The bottom line is though that you want to do this with someone who knows how. You could end up being lame or having the world's most painful shin splints!

    There is a special school of karate dealing solely with breaking objects: wood, bottles, etc.

    That's a place to start looking.

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