Arnica for deep bruises

**Tang-Soo-Architect** · 10-03-2006, 07:28

Has anyone tried taking the homeopathic medicine Arnica for deep bruises or swelling? Someone has recommended it to me but I'm a bit dubious as to it's effectiveness.
I got kicked in the ankle a few weeks back and while there is no visible swelling anymore there is discomfort when walking, especially up or down steps.

**silentsamurai** · 10-03-2006, 08:05

Tiger balm is good for bruising..either on the surface or general pain...Deep heat is also really good....use a compressed bandage or an ankle support!

Hope it gets better soon

**jabonn** · 10-03-2006, 08:48

Originally Posted by Tang-Soo-Architect

Has anyone tried taking the homeopathic medicine Arnica for deep bruises or swelling? Someone has recommended it to me but I'm a bit dubious as to it's effectiveness.
I got kicked in the ankle a few weeks back and while there is no visible swelling anymore there is discomfort when walking, especially up or down steps.

I tried it about ten years ago as a preventative measure for the bruises I was taking to my legs and arms. I tried both the homeopathic and the ointment. I did not see any results from about four months of application. I advice is to not waste your money.

Have you tried http://www.bluestuff.com/product.aspx?pid=248?

**adouglasmhor** · 10-03-2006, 08:53

I used the homeopathic before and after when I had my tongue pierced, It had some effect on the swelling, but Guinness ice cold was more effective.

**Kenpo5th** · 10-03-2006, 13:57

Wow, I've always had great results with Arnica for bruises and headaches (from getting your bell rung...)

**FunSPE** · 10-03-2006, 23:22

Ive used arnica gel for a while now and Ive always had great results.

**Rasputin** · 10-03-2006, 23:52

Sorry, I prefer science to homeopathy. Have you tried Phrenology?

**Tang-Soo-Architect** · 10-04-2006, 03:05

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Sorry, I prefer science to homeopathy. Have you tried Phrenology?

I don't believe in Phrenols ,or any other alien races for that matter.

**jailess** · 10-11-2006, 11:19

Tang-soo Architect,

There's very little (if any) evidence that homeopathic remedies such as Arnica are effective for bruising. Bruises are the presence of blood in the subcutaneous/dermal compartment of the skin; the only thing that takes that away is the blood cells being broken down and resorbed by your white blood cells. All that takes is time.

In order for Arnica to work, it would have to speed up this process (as would all the other remedies mentinoed on this thread). Jwinch may correct me, but I don't think any of these remedies have been proven to be useful. Although I will admit Deep Heat feels good, I think it's a symptomatic treatment rather than something that alters the disease process.

PS are you really an architect?

**davidmitchel** · 10-23-2006, 04:26

Standard item in my 1st aid kit.

Arnica is great! It soothes and helps the bruises to disappear quickly. Also great for minor muscle aches.

Arnica is also inexpensive, so trying it will not damage your wallet. Give it a try and let us know what you think.

Cheers
Dave

**Rasputin** · 10-23-2006, 07:19

http://www.nutritional-herbal-supple...ts/arnica.html

"DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION

No recommended dose.

Arnica is available in homeopathic preparations, herbal tinctures and topical ointments, gels and creams. Arnica is listed in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States (HPUS).

Summary: Although arnica and its extracts have a long history of use, few studies suggest its extracts are clinically useful. Its use as a topical counterirritant and wound-healing stimulant continues. Internal consumption of arnica is not recommended, because it is considered poisonous. Numerous cases of contact dermatitis have been reported from the plant."

I'd give it a pass. There is already an extremely useful therapeutic benefit from using cold compresses and light massage to break up the pooled blood of the bruise, so why use a poison whose only benefit is placebo?

**davidmitchel** · 10-23-2006, 08:12

Hi Rasputin,

Just want to contextualise 2 things:

Internal consumption of arnica is not recommended, because it is considered poisonous. Numerous cases of contact dermatitis have been reported from the plant."

1. Arnica ointment is topical, and internal consumption was never an option (I hope, he!he!) Just like we would not eat Deep Heat.
2. The plant itself is not applied to the skin. Agreed that if it were, it would be one b-i-i-i-g itch. Instead, in homeopathy an extract of the plant is diluted to the 1,000th, 10,000th, 100,000th etc and mixed with a base such as aqua. cream. That heavily diluted mixture is applied. Hence there is next to nothing of the actual plant in the ointment. That homeopathic medicine works, considering the miniscule quantities, has been proven. You may want to look at Malaria and Smallpox, when you have the time.

Also, Arnica is not preventive. It is curative. Applying it to prevent bruises will never work. This principle applies to all homeopathic medicine.

Finally, not all Arnica Creams are homeopathic. Naturopathists and Herbalists also use Arnica, but their dilutions could be much stronger ...

Hope that clarifies.

Peace

Dave

**Cliff Hargrave** · 10-23-2006, 08:37

Originally Posted by davidmitchel

...That homeopathic medicine works, considering the miniscule quantities, has been proven.

Uh....that would be a big NO.

You may want to look at Malaria and Smallpox, when you have the time.

Homeopathy has nothing in common with vaccines.

**Rasputin** · 10-23-2006, 08:52

Originally Posted by Cliff Hargrave

Uh....that would be a big NO.

Yer my hero!

Don't buy into the hype. Your skin is a semi-permeable membrane, but it is a remarkably sound barrier against most chemicals, although there are some which penetrate it (such as DMSO).

I don't have a problem with allopathic medicine in general, but homeopathy is an enormous scam and an affront to scientific progress. Any benefit related to homeopathic therapy is entirely placebo in nature.

"Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth."

From http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ics/homeo.html

Please, save your money. Ice is your friend and is a whole lot cheaper.

**davidmitchel** · 10-23-2006, 09:55

Hi Cliff, watch this spot and I'll back up my claim soon enough ...

Dave

**davidmitchel** · 10-23-2006, 10:03

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth.

Hi Rasputin,

It does not get diluted to that extent in a single bucket

. But it is a novel idea.
Picture your 15 drops and let us say that hypothetically the 15 drops = 1cl. That 1cl gets mixed with 100cl water.(The dilution is to 100th) 1cl of this mixture is again diluted by 100cl water. (The dilution is to 1000th) and so forth.

Hope that clarifies the questions.

Dave

**davidmitchel** · 10-23-2006, 10:58

Hi Cliff,

I am new on the forums and really, really did not want to get into a debate. But what the heck, I enjoy debating so here goes.

As promised ....

Homeopathy is not to be confused with Herbalism and Naturopathy.

It does not only make use of plant- and animal matter to cure, it also uses nosodes (disease material), metals, minerals etc. many homeopaths are qualified mainstream doctors, surgeons and specialists as well.

As in any medical profession, the odd charlatan pops up, gets arrested, ridiculed and jailed.

This is a regulated medical profession, with medical training.

Homeopathy

That, which can produce a set of symptoms in a healthy individual, can treat a sick individual who is manifesting a similar set of symptoms." This principle, like cures like, became the first of a new medicinal approach to which he gave the name homeopathy.

Allopathy

"the treatment of disease by conventional means, i.e. with drugs having effects opposite to the symptoms.”

The smallpox vaccine (Cowpox virus) and quinine (Cinchona Bark was the original source of quinine) work on the homeopathic, not the allopathic principles.

Smallpox: When you inject someone with a miniscule (homeopathically small) dosage of the virus (let us call it the artificial disease agent), it prevents the natural disease from taking over the body of the patient because no two similar diseases can co-exist within the same body. Because the artificial disease is administered to be stronger than the natural disease, it disappears. The patient does not get sicker, because the artificial disease only exists as long as the artificial disease agent (medicine) is administered.

Malaria: When you consume Cinchona (aka China Bark), and you are perfectly healthy, it will give you malaria like symptoms. When you have malaria and you use the homeopathic preparation, the malaria is cured. A miniscule (homeopathically small) dosage of quinine (the artificial disease agent) is administered, it prevents the natural disease (malaria) from taking over the body of the patient because no two similar diseases can co-exist within the same body. Because the artificial disease is administered to be stronger than the natural disease, it disappears. The patient does not get sicker, because the artificial disease only exists as long as the artificial disease agent (medicine) is administered.

See below to verify that the smallpox vaccine is indeed a homeopathic preparation and not allopathic.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/smallpox/en/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Jenner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox
See below for malaria treatment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Christian_Friedrich_Samuel_Hahneman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine

It is not just wikipedia, this information is available widely from credible sources on the net.

BTW, I am not knocking mainstream medicine. Both of these sciences have their place. A homeopath cannot ever fix a broken leg or transplant a heart. That is the ortho and the heart surgeon's job. For chronic complaints, viruses, bacterials, etc a homeopath is a tough act to follow.

Sincerely yours in peace, health and hopefully harmony

Dave

**Rasputin** · 10-23-2006, 11:28

Originally Posted by davidmitchel

Hi Rasputin,

It does not get diluted to that extent in a single bucket

. But it is a novel idea.
Picture your 15 drops and let us say that hypothetically the 15 drops = 1cl. That 1cl gets mixed with 100cl water.(The dilution is to 100th) 1cl of this mixture is again diluted by 100cl water. (The dilution is to 1000th) and so forth.

Hope that clarifies the questions.

Dave

It's not a novel idea.

It's physics. Fluid dynamics. There are a discrete number of molecules possible in a liquid for a given volume.

As per your example above, the first dilution is indeed to the 100th, because 1 x 100 = 100. However, the second dilution is to the 10,000th, which is 100 x 100. You are starting off an order of magnitude off.

Each time you perform one of those dilutions, you are adding two zeroes to the dilution. 3x would therefore be 1,000,000 (or 10,000 x 100), 4x would be 100,000,000.

Most Homeopathic recipes call for dilutions of 200C (1 part in 1 followed by 400 zeroes) to 50M (1 part in 1 followed by 100,000 zeroes).

http://www.hahnemannlabs.com/homeopa...medylist-a.htm

http://homeoint.org/books4/kotok/founder.htm

In this particular case, that of Arnica, the remedies which I was able to find available were all 1x, so relatively high potency compared to other homeopathic recipes. However, this directly contradicts the "Law of Infinitesimals":
http://www.homeowatch.org/basic/infinitesimals.html

...which states that the more dilute the substance, the greater its therapeutic benefit.

Apparently not so in this case:

" Double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trial with 64 patients undergone elective hand surgery revealed Homeopathic arnica did not control bruising, reduce swelling or promote recovery after local trauma compared to placebo."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

" Nineteen patients of facial telangiectases when treated with topical arnica, there was no prevention or resolution of bruising observed."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

" A review of the clinical efficacy of homeopathic arnica reveals, the claim that homeopathic arnica is efficacious beyond a placebo effect is not supported by rigorous clinical trials."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

" Of eight clinical trials with homeopathic Arnica, which were placebo-controlled, most had severe methodological flaws and failed to show efficacy"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

There were lots more.

It's flawed. It's a hoax.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/096_home.html

Don't buy the hype. The water you draw from your tap at home can be scientifically proven to have a greater chance of containing a single molecule of what you are looking for than your average homeopathic remedy.

Besides, there's money to be had in medicine. If Arnica had a valuable therapeutic use, don't you think there would be a topical drug manufactured from it as a prescription for bruises?

**Rasputin** · 10-23-2006, 11:40

Vaccines are NOT homeopathy. They rely on doses far larger than the law of infinitesimals allows, since there are actually samples of the weakened or killed virus present in the vaccine, which is patently not the case in most internally-taken homeopathic remedies.

Vaccines are proven to work using scientific methods. The way that they function is a cornerstone of scientific understanding of biological immune systems.

A doctor who prescribes homeopathic remedies should have his medical license revoked. Doctors are scientists, and homeopathy is not even bad science. It's not even witchcraft. It was an interesting idea when it was developed in the late 16th century, but its 15 minutes of fame are long spent. Let it die.

**CDunn** · 10-23-2006, 11:40

Ah - Which part of 'In the US, quinine sulphate is available as 324mg tablets' is homeopathic again? Introduction of significant amounts of material that is known to be fatally toxic to micro-organisims, yet that are only midly toxic to human beings is one of the cornerstones of 'mainstream' medicine - Find that which causes the ailment, and remove or repair it. If this happens to correspond with the 'like cures like', so be it.

Rasptin's point with the lots of zeros is very simple - In any dilutions past the 'potencies' of 24D(24X) or 12C, the active ingrediant in question is statistically not present. In a 30D dilution, there is a one-in-one-hundred-thousand chance of the active ingrediant having even one molecule present in 1 milliliter. Meanwhile, the EPA considers 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times as much arsenic in your tap water to be safe. So, this phial of distilled water mixed into a cream is supposed to...

Of Vaccinations, the founder of homeopathy, Hahnemann said: "But to use a human morbific matter (a Psorin taken from the itch in man) as a remedy for the same itch or for evils arisen therefrom, stay away from it! Nothing can result from this but trouble and aggravation of the disease." From http://www.lyghtforce.com/Homeopathy...ue2/voice.html , "The these of this article, therefore, is that homeopaths should be opposed to vaccination as a medical practice because (1) vaccination is not consistent with homeopathic principles of health and cure, and (2) because vaccination may potentially arouse latent inherited and constitutional weaknesses." So, the great triumph of medicine over one of the the ancient scourges of humanity "can result [in] nothing but trouble"? Sounds like a ringing endorsement for homeopathic vaccination to me...