Me again and this time about the application of T'ai Chi in combat?

**davidmitchel** · 10-19-2006, 14:51

It appears that pushing hands are not taught much any more.

Have T'ai Chi practitioners altered their philosophy, given up on teaching the martial arts side and teaching T'ai Chi for health benefits, chi, balance, technique instead?

Thanks
Dave

**sean_stonehart** · 10-19-2006, 15:11

Originally Posted by davidmitchel

It appears that pushing hands are not taught much any more.

Have T'ai Chi practitioners altered their philosophy, given up on teaching the martial arts side and teaching T'ai Chi for health benefits, chi, balance, technique instead?

Thanks
Dave

Some may have, but find a reputable Chen Taiji Quan student/teacher from 1 of the four diamonds (Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Zhen Lei, Zhu Tian Cai, Wang Xian) and you'll find plenty of push hands training for combat or competition.

But again like anything, it's up to the individual teacher.

**Mandeigh Wells** · 10-19-2006, 15:12

Originally Posted by davidmitchel

It appears that pushing hands are not taught much any more.

Have T'ai Chi practitioners altered their philosophy, given up on teaching the martial arts side and teaching T'ai Chi for health benefits, chi, balance, technique instead?

Thanks
Dave

the short answer is most of them never knew the applications in the first place.....most taiji is nothing more than musical movement. Its gone from a well rounded art to a dance and with each generation it seems to slip a little more, although there does seem to be a bit of a resurgence with more and more people discontended with the dance looking for taijiquan again. And there is more access to better Yang teachers and the Chen family are traveling world wide...so maybe we will see it come full circle again.

**rgoad** · 10-19-2006, 15:39

It's still there but hard to find. Much of Tai Chi's popularity is due the alleged health benefits, so many people are not interested in the martial side of it. There is also a large group who are attracted to as they are to Yoga and attendant philosophies. These folks actively resist martial applications.

Also Tai Chi does not lend itself to learning in the same manner as external arts, i.e. mechanical repetition, but needs more one-on-one from teachers to make it work. Also, you have to practice on your own an awful lot and use the instruction time for tiny details.

There are instructors out there, but they may not teach you just because you ask. They probably will want to make sure you are willing to put the time into it that it takes to actually learn it and not just make it a series of tricks.

**davidmitchel** · 10-20-2006, 07:10

Thank you rgoad, Mandeigh and sean !

I have just found a local dojo which claims the following: Does this look right? If so, I have found myself a teacher!

"We train traditional Yang Style Taijiquan which originated from Yang, Ban-Hou. This style emphasizes al aspects of Taiji training, including the martial content. This style is different from the style which was passed on by Yang, Chen- Fu which mainly emphasizes the health aspects of Taiji.

BarehandTaiji Solo Sequence, Applications from the Solo Sequence, Fast Taiji training, Still Meditation, Qi Circulation Training, Jin Training, Pushing Hands and its Applications, Taiji Fighting Set and Deeper Martial Applications, Taiji Free Pushing Hands and Sparring.
Taiji SwordTaiji Sword Solo Sequence, Qi Enhancement and Extension Training, Martial Applications, Matching Forms, Sparring.
Taiji SaberTaiji Saber Solo Sequence, Martial Applications, Matching Forms and Sparring.
Taiji Spear and StaffIndividual Spear and Staff Martial Techniques, Sticking and Matching Practice, Long Weapons Sparring
Taiji BallListening and Understanding Jin Training, Adhere-Stick Jin Training, Qi Enhancement and Extension Training, Two-person Taiji Ball Training."

Thanks
Dave

**Mandeigh Wells** · 10-20-2006, 09:12

Interesting except Yang Cheng Fu's taijiquan did not emphasise the health aspect.......

Hmmm find out a wee bit more about the teachers...there are some pretty wild claims out there.

**davidmitchel** · 10-20-2006, 11:43

Thanks Mandeigh. The school is part of YMAA (Yang's martial arts association). YMAA's international Head Quarters is shown as Boston MA. They also have Regional Head Offices in Paris (FR), Krakow (Poland), Pretoria (ZA) and Amadora (Portugal).

They also appear to have offices (some 25 or more) everywhere from South America, through North America, Europe, Africa and as far afoot as Iran.

But no offices in the East.

The only URL is http://www.ymaasa.co.za. There is no international URL.

Should I ask for information in this thread abouth the YMAA or do you think I should rather start a new one?

Regards,
Dave

**East Winds** · 10-20-2006, 13:21

David,

Mandeigh is quite correct. There is a misconception that Yang Cheng-fu only taught for health. Nothing could be further from the truth!! The Traditional Yang form as passed down from Yang Cheng-fu via Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo very much teaches the martial aspect, not only in the Barehand Form, but also in Sword (68 posture) and Sabre (13 Posture). The current Yang family do not however recognise a spear form. As Mandeigh also says, there are a lot of wild claims about especially those claiming to teach Yang Jian Hou and Yang Ban Hou (and even Yang Lu Chan!!!!!!) forms. However, check them out. They seem to be saying the right things. Good luck with your search and let us know how you get on.

Very best wishes

**Bugeisha** · 10-20-2006, 23:01

http://www.ymaa.com/

The URL for the International site.

I've heard varying things about Dr. Yang, but I've never met him in person, so I can't offer much info on his system. I believe his White Crane is good, and he supposedly has solid qinna, but I can't speak on his taiji.

**davidmitchel** · 10-21-2006, 08:23

Thanks East Winds and Bugeisha. I will check out the URL.

Dave

**davidmitchel** · 10-21-2006, 08:53

According to the site, they only have 1 qualified assistant trainer in Shaolin and T'ai Chi Chuan locally. He cannot offer training in Chigong and Chin Na.

The local site claims that they can offer Chigong and Chin Na. Contradiction - again.

Is there any way for someone like me who dislikes being hoodwinked, to check whether an instructor is in fact not a self-proclaimed instructor?

Dave

**Tuturuhan** · 02-05-2007, 23:08

Originally Posted by Mandeigh Wells

the short answer is most of them never knew the applications in the first place.....most taiji is nothing more than musical movement. Its gone from a well rounded art to a dance and with each generation it seems to slip a little more, although there does seem to be a bit of a resurgence with more and more people discontended with the dance looking for taijiquan again. And there is more access to better Yang teachers and the Chen family are traveling world wide...so maybe we will see it come full circle again.

Hmmm...I agree completely. You are one of the few who that I have run across who knows the truth. Though, the fighting technqiues are there to offer few see them. With each generation the method de-evolves.

Please take a lot at the following. I would enjoy hearing your critique. I originally studied tai chi chuan 25 years ago after 18 years of "hard styles". It's hard for people to define what I do...suffice to say I have endeavored to practice Yin/Internal methods.

cavity strikes and pressure points: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-YM5...elated&search=

push hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwuw...elated&search=

walking the circle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRJTM...elated&search=

By the way, I assume you practice "internal methods" for fighting? Yes?

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

**Jeff Burger** · 02-06-2007, 03:49

Yang Jwing Ming (of YMAA) has really good fajing. They taught applications but did not practice push hands (that was or so 15 years ago).

Like has already been said most Tai Chi players are not doing it for martial art. I have even had people argue with me that there is nothing martial art about it. (do we have a hippy emotocon?)

Jeff

**Student27** · 02-20-2007, 03:30

Just a few thoughts on everyones thoughts.

I believe the recognition of Tai Chi as an effective martial art has faded largely because of the heavy "new age" associations attached to it as well as the extreme level of skill required to use it effectively and the inordinate amount of time required to cultivate this skill (10 years before leaving the training hall). I also have had the pleasure to meet and experience the skill of a true master, Yang Jun who has trained daily since the age of 5 under an even greater Master, Yang Zhen Duo.

Tai Chi Gong Fu cannot be learned quickly nor easily and is, for the most part, inaccessible to those with full-time jobs and families. Hence the allegations of this incredible skill being myth.

It does, however, exist.

**lorax** · 02-20-2007, 21:16

Originally Posted by davidmitchel

It appears that pushing hands are not taught much any more.

Have T'ai Chi practitioners altered their philosophy, given up on teaching the martial arts side and teaching T'ai Chi for health benefits, chi, balance, technique instead?

Thanks
Dave

It seems to me that most practice Tai Chi for health these days. I would say you aren't doing Tai Chi if you don't know the applications, instead, you'd just be waving your arms and legs.

For example, in my school, there are never more than 4 people in Tui Shou, but sometimes up to 20 in Tai Chi.

Ultimatley, its up to the practitioner.

**ggg214** · 03-02-2007, 22:37

in very traditional taiji training way, as i take now, push hands is most important thing in the training.after teaching stand stakes, we push hands with each other, sometimes with my instructor.through it,we can easily find out the taiji strength,and the way passing the strength,and problems.

**Sochin** · 03-03-2007, 12:35

Originally Posted by lorax

... I would say you aren't doing Tai Chi if you don't know the applications, instead, you'd just be waving your arms and legs.
...

And I'd say that if you are waving your arms and legs about, you are not doing tai chi at all no matter what apps you might have for the moves.

**Myrmidon** · 10-06-2009, 20:14

Although taijiquan has definitely gravitated towards a health related practice in the last decades, it is still practiced as a martial art by some. If you are in North America, you may want to check out Chen Zhonghua and Ren Guangyi.

**Dennis Monk** · 10-07-2009, 06:34

Originally Posted by Myrmidon

Although taijiquan has definitely gravitated towards a health related practice in the last decades, it is still practiced as a martial art by some. If you are in North America, you may want to check out Chen Zhonghua and Ren Guangyi.

And that ladies and gentlemen is the sound of a long dead thread being resurrected. The original poster and thread creator hasn't posed anything on this forum in almost three years.