Which Chinese MA would you recommend to others???

[RobNyc]

Which Chinese Martial Arts would you recommend to others???
And why?

[LanceWildcat1]

Which Chinese Martial Arts would you recommend to others???
And why?

I voted for External and Internal. I trained this way, and I believe that you need balance. I study both, and am pleased with the balance that I see in my abilities.

[RobNyc]

That is correct, you are absolutely right.

But which are the External/Internal Styles?

Taiji and his families are Internal so then no external there.

Some KungFu are just external and claim to be Hard & Soft.

Some I have seen that maybe hard/soft is HungGar KungFu
Am I right?


Thanks Hey.

[LanceWildcat1]

RobNyc

But which are the External/Internal Styles?

In my case-Shaolin and Tai Chi.

[RobNyc]

Ok,
so TaiChi is external & internal?

that's what I meant. a style for example hunggar says is
Hard&Soft, External&Internal.
TaiChi is internal according to what I've read about it.

Shaolin is very External, well Shaolin Temple Boxing taught in the temple is, LoL.

[LanceWildcat1]

Taichi is internal, shaolin is external is what I meant.

Lance Hyatt

[Mandeigh Wells]

Taiji is classified under internal art but it is a combination of hard and soft.....yeilding, redirecting and then dispatching your opponant. For anyone who things it is all about be soft 100% of the time you would no longer have the interplay between yin and yang which is the basis of taiji....in fact the yin yang symbol is called tai chi...the union of opposites. Taiji combines body mechanics, aligmenets and structure to create...energies, such as splitting energy, roll back energy, ward off energy etc. The understanding of these energies is what makes taiji an internal art, it does not rely purley on muscular strength, but the strikes and punches are as hard and effective as any other 'hard styles'. The breathing work and ancillary practices such as qigong are designed to help build this energy and strengthen the body. I think that sometimes when people refer to taiji as an internal art they are aiming to make it sound mysterious or even superiour to other arts, but wether you believe in enery or not, its not about mysticism, running up trees etc, just a well devised system of training that is adaptable for a variety of people to practice and teaches good life skills.....like not meeting force with force...etc


mandeigh

[RobNyc]

Originally posted by LanceWildcat1
Taichi is internal, shaolin is external is what I meant.

Lance Hyatt

Yea I was gonna say that, because I know Shaolin is categorize as External, and Tai Chi as Internal ;-)
But I wanted to make sure .

[RobNyc]

Originally posted by Mandeigh
Taiji is classified under internal art but it is a combination of hard and soft.....yeilding, redirecting and then dispatching your opponant. For anyone who things it is all about be soft 100% of the time you would no longer have the interplay between yin and yang which is the basis of taiji....in fact the yin yang symbol is called tai chi...the union of opposites. Taiji combines body mechanics, aligmenets and structure to create...energies, such as splitting energy, roll back energy, ward off energy etc. The understanding of these energies is what makes taiji an internal art, it does not rely purley on muscular strength, but the strikes and punches are as hard and effective as any other 'hard styles'. The breathing work and ancillary practices such as qigong are designed to help build this energy and strengthen the body. I think that sometimes when people refer to taiji as an internal art they are aiming to make it sound mysterious or even superiour to other arts, but wether you believe in enery or not, its not about mysticism, running up trees etc, just a well devised system of training that is adaptable for a variety of people to practice and teaches good life skills.....like not meeting force with force...etc


mandeigh

Thanks.

[LanceWildcat1]

Mandeigh:

Taiji is classified under internal art but it is a combination of hard and soft.....yeilding, redirecting and then dispatching your opponant. For anyone who things it is all about be soft 100% of the time you would no longer have the interplay between yin and yang which is the basis of taiji....in fact the yin yang symbol is called tai chi...the union of opposites. Taiji combines body mechanics, aligmenets and structure to create...energies, such as splitting energy, roll back energy, ward off energy etc.

OK, now I understand what you are saying! I have never considered it to be a 'hard' art, only as a tool for calming the body and realigning my 'chi'. I am going to do some serious reading about the 'hard' side of Taiji, and try to understand the 'hard' applications. I was always taught that TaiChi was done slow, with rhythm and calm. I never explored the 'hard side', but I'm going to.

Lance Hyatt

[SeanStonehart]

Check out the Chen Taiji Lao Jia Er Lu Routine (also known as Cannon Fist) or the Xin Jia Routine (New Frame). Hell, check anything out by the Chen family. Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Zheng Lei & Ren Guan Yi all have videos out that show Chen Taiji quan. Any one of them will demonstrate "hard & soft" of Taijiquan. It's definately as Mandeigh described, yin & yang.

[RobNyc]

I'll need to do some reading too.

[Mandeigh Wells]

Lance wrote:

OK, now I understand what you are saying! I have never considered it to be a 'hard' art, only as a tool for calming the body and realigning my 'chi'. I am going to do some serious reading about the 'hard' side of Taiji, and try to understand the 'hard' applications. I was always taught that TaiChi was done slow, with rhythm and calm. I never explored the 'hard side', but I'm going to. you are not alone, taiji has been seriously hyjacked and with many 'teachers' springing up will little real understanding of the art it is in danger of becoming lost to the world despite one of the fastest growing practises. In Yang Shi Taijiquan (Yang Family Taijiquan) there are a set of 'rules' for practice called the 10 essences. Some of them are concerned with the body requirments of practice and some are more about the 'manner' in which you practice.
1. Raise the spirit: physically this is aligning the head and neck, but it also describes the upright posture through the whole body and where the eyes look and about having 360% vision.....
2. Sinking shoulders and elbows.....strength through the correct alinments, loose, no tension in arms.
3. Loosen chest and round the back.....more guidance on the way the body is held for maximum softness but still strong in its structure.
4. Loosen waist open Kua: te waist controls the movemnts in taiji, the kua refers to the inguinal folds of the groin, to be tight and tense in this area affects the ability to use the waist, feel the weight changes and be rooted physically to the ground.
5. Understand the weight changes in the legs. feeling the change of weight as each frame changes, knowing where your weight is and balanced at every precise moment in each movemnt.
6. Cooridnate upper and lower body. looking at the relationship between the arms and legs, the body moving as a single unit even though the arms and leg, upper and lower body may be moving at different speeds....they all finish the application at the same time if not the energy is disturbed.
7 Continutity . moving smothely from one posture or one energy to the next, can only happen when the first 5 essences exsist.
8 Unite internal intent and outside body......every move orginates in the mind and from the begining to the end the movemnt should have 'intent' or purpose. It is common to see taiji people practising with loose floopy hands, missenterpreting the word relaxed, where there is no intent there is no energy.
9. Use mind not force. this is at a more advanced level. It doesn't mean that you send people flying by using your mind, but it is again related to demenour and the way you carry and express yourself....quite closely related to focus.
10. seek still ness in motion and motion in still ness....the new agers love this one as they try to become 'one' with the universe. It is about seeking a balance and tranquility, practising in an undisturbd manner, in harmony with your surroundings, your opponant, no fear or adverse emotions, appearing very calm on the outside but being alert, aware, but not disturbed.......but we can't do any of this without high spirit.

Yang Chen Fu was responsble for much of the develoment of the slow aspect of taijiquan as we know it today. Practsing the movemnts slowley means that we can also practise them precisely with attention to the essenses, the harmonies, the alignments the structure.......Yang Cheng Fu was reknown as a martial arts master, but then he practised taiji in all the aspects, using his fighting skills as necessary. I think the main problem these days is that in the West there are not enough high level teachers who are martial artists. They have learned a basic sequence of steps call them selves a taiji teacher and then start a class. The sad part is that many of them believe they do know what they are teaching because they have had low level teachers themslef and haven't really seen what taiji is about. So one it goes with more taiji dance classes and less of the real deal.
Taiji applications are practised slowley to develope listing energy and sticking energy, but taiji applications are practised in real-time too...

happy reading folks!

Mandeigh

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Mandeigh
Lance wrote:

...snipped for brevity...

I think the main problem these days is that in the West there are not enough high level teachers who are martial artists. They have learned a basic sequence of steps call them selves a taiji teacher and then start a class. The sad part is that many of them believe they do know what they are teaching because they have had low level teachers themslef and haven't really seen what taiji is about. So one it goes with more taiji dance classes and less of the real deal.
Taiji applications are practised slowley to develope listing energy and sticking energy, but taiji applications are practised in real-time too...

happy reading folks!

Mandeigh

ROCK AND ROLL MANDEIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My kinda girl!!!!

Good answer & well put. I define the taiji internal arts as: Tie cheeeeee for those who need to love the world & hug the universe & then there taiji for the martial artist. It's a bit more simplistic than your definition, but says the same thing!

[Mandeigh Wells]

some quotes from Fu Zhong Wens Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan to back up my previous points.....

"Taijiquan is the art of softness containing hardness of a needle concealed in cotton. Its techniques, physiology and mechanics are imbued with considerable philosophical priciples. THere fore, those who would study this method must go through definite stages and appropriate duration of time. Although the guidance of an excellent master and dilligent training with freinds must not be under emphasised, most important is individual daily practice. Otherwise one can discuss it till the end of time, or think longingly for an entire year, but once you are engaged in in a fight, there is a total absence of substance and you remain a novice without a days acomplishment........you can think all day with no out come, it is not as good as [practical]study."

On lack of motivation and perseverence....
"We are definately not lacking for students. However it is generally impossible to avaoid two routes: in the first instance are those already possesing talent, who are young and strong, can draw inferences easily, are clever beyond the average - what a pity that they rarely accomplish anything, yet are satisfied and will suddenly stop studying, unable to endure a great undertaking. In the second instance are those who impatiently seek quick results, yet who are careless in their development. Before a whole year has passed they have already studied the hand, sword, broadsword and spear forms. Although able to imitate in rote fashion, they in fact never master the secrets.........if this present generation by means of mistakes, transmits mistakes they will certainly extend their own mistakes to others...most distressing for the future of the martial arts"

On practice of the solo form...
" When initially learning Taijiquan, one must first study the form. Studying the form means to learn each of the postures named within the syllabus, each posture as taught by a master............Each posture must be carefully analyzed: ones deportment in practie must seek what is correct. When you've completed one form [individual posture] completely then work on the next. Gradually you will reach completion in your practice."
On method of practice........
"When practicing the movemnts all of the joints of the entire body must be relaxed, open and natural. First one must not inhibit the qi in the mouth or abdomen, second, do not allow force [tension]to gather up in the limbs, waist or legs. these two ideas are expressed by various practitioners of internal martial arts. However, once they commence a movement, with one turn of their body or kick of their legs or swing of the waist they gasp for air and their bodies become agitated....these flaws come from holding the breath and adding force to the movemnts"

ROCK AND ROLL MANDEIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My kinda girl!!!!

ooh you say the nicest of things!

I define the taiji internal arts as: Tie cheeeeee for those who need to love the world & hug the universe & then there taiji for the martial artist.

Mandeigh

[Jeff Burger]

What does the person wants from their training??? Self defense , sport competition , health / fitness , hobby


JMB

[sean_stonehart]

Jeff... I can't speak for other schools & I don't speak for my Sifu, but at our school, we tell people we teach Yang & Chen taiji as a martial art. We don't downplay or degrade the importance of health benefits & the internal development, but we treat it for what it is above anything else associated, a martial art. We teach qigong in association with it and practice the forms slow & deliberate linking the body, mind & spirit, but then we push hands & work applications quite a bit.

If somebody comes in looking to gain better health, they get it & then a little something else. If somebody comes in looking for self defense, they're getting that plus a good work out, but not as outwardly vigorous as our Shaolin curriculum. If somebody is expecting to be one with the world & blend with the universe after class or two, or be able to teach what we teach them, they're going to be disappointed.

I've been studying taiji for a little over 2.5 years, Yang & Chen, and barely understand what's happening. I know what's supposed to happen, but I'm still in the process of making the energy start to move, let alone leaving my body for the higher enlightenment. One note about this, it's not a reflection on my sifu, I'm not a real strong internalist... I prefer the Shaolin side of my school. It's a little more direct for me.

[Jeff Burger]

For self defense I most likely wouldnt recommend CMA for learning in a short period of time...though that can depend alot on the school and teacher.
Sanda / Sanshou is a good for the stand up game but most wouldnt consider it a style (I dont).

Take boxing , Judo and add a few low kicks and you covered alot of bases.

JMB

[RobNyc]

Originally posted by Jeff Burger
What does the person wants from their training??? Self defense , sport competition , health / fitness , hobby


JMB

What I want is :

Unarmed fighting applications ,Striking, Kicking, Grappling, bone & joint breaking attack methods or joint locks + locking, tissue & organ attacking methods or vital points(areas) attacking methods, weapons, + and last but not least the soft side like health beneficials things like qigong (chigung), meditation, stuff that the internal styles have.
hope that helps. i am looking at a very complete style and want to find it.

[RobNyc]

It's like
Yin & Yang

From External training to Internal training.