R.a.t.

**TonyU** · 11-17-2006, 15:34

Originally Posted by Cliff Hargrave

I am talking about the FMA based destructions that Vunak teaches. Trying to hit a precise point on a body is easier than hitting a fist in mid air with your elbow, because the body isn't moving near as fast as a fist.

The destructions that Vunak teaches are an extension of the "defanging the snake" principal. Instead of cutting or striking the hands with a weapon, you attack the fist with your elbows. Problem is, once you shorten the attacking weapon, from knife or stick to just arm, and shorten your weapon even more, to elbows, the odds of actually hitting your target drop big time. Trying to hit your fist when we each have a stick is much easier than trying to hit your fist with my elbow when you are punching.

Don't get me wrong, I like alot of the stuff Vunak does. I just like to gear training towards techniques with a higher percentage return.

Ah, I understand now. Thanks.

**Flashlock** · 11-17-2006, 19:12

Trying to hit a precise point on a body is easier than hitting a fist in mid air with your elbow, because the body isn't moving near as fast as a fist.

Thanks for clarifying, however, I don't think you are describing what Vunak teaches quite correctly. In fact, he specifically points out that you can't try to elbow a jab coming in at your, way too slow!

Firstly, you have your hands raised a bit above your head, elbows out. You never try to destroy an in-coming fist by swatting it in the air with your elbow, that's very difficult if not impossible. Instead, your opponent impales his own fist on your elbow. All you do is raise it slightly about nose and chin level as you hop back. He breaks his hand or you deflect it, at worse he strikes your forearm which is just a block.

So, in my limited experience, it seems to work. I was even able to pull it off against an Olympic medalist boxer vs his jab, and he is lightening. All you do is bring your bent elbow up slightly (it's already up at about your neck level, palms out facing the opponent), then you bring your hand back like your combing your hair (if we had any!), and jump back a little.

Out of about 20 fast straight punches, high and low, my training partner (wearing gloves) would have probably broken his hand on about 10 of the shots--all the others were blocked or just deflected off my elbow.

I don't know, it's pretty good. Who did you train with, Officer?

And by the way--thanks for your service! You put your butt on the line every day, I'm just a hobbyist.

Thanks!

**Cliff Hargrave** · 11-17-2006, 19:24

I am aware that you are not actively seeking out the fist and the point is to get them to hit the elbow. Just my opinion, I still don't think it's high percentage. Most of your idiots on the street are going to be swinging looping punches anyway and that makes it even harder to do.

I did pekiti tirsia for awhile with a friend of mine that also did some Inosanto seminars, so I am not claiming expertise in it by any means. I also have watched Vunaks tapes on it, the ones where he plays the bongos

**Flashlock** · 11-17-2006, 20:41

Ahh, Vunak's bongos! And let's not forget the mullet.

There's just so many damn systems and ideas! R.A.T. was taught to SEALs, To-Shin Do is pretty broad and has a nice philosophical slant I like, Brazillian JJ is not standard in the US Army and does great in UFC and Pride... I guess I'm just looking for the most practical, simple, useful, yet deadly answer to self-defense.

As a law enforcement officer (or anyone who would like to opine), if you had to bet dollars to doghnuts, what would you suggest that someone study? A little voice inside my head is suggesting Brazillian JJ mixed with Thai kick boxing and some kali.

**TonyU** · 11-17-2006, 20:48

Originally Posted by Flashlock

As a law enforcement officer (or anyone who would like to opine), if you had to bet dollars to doghnuts, what would you suggest that someone study? A little voice inside my head is suggesting Brazillian JJ mixed with Thai kick boxing and some kali.

I would agree as well. Surprising, isn't it?