Yunnan Bai or Pai Yao

[Brian Dugger]

From time to time, I've used this patent formula (Yunnan Bai Yao) for serious injury and on one ocassion minor surgery. I'm interested in knowing if anyone out there has any internal OCM meds they use other than Y.B.Y.? There are plenty of topicals, please don't want that list (another product/subject, another thread).

[Cory Nyenhuis]

I have used yunnan baiyou on occasion, also Red Flower pain relief capsules. One of my buddies used a Chinese cough medicine that I can not remember the name for but is pretty common if you search for patent medicine. I also used Guo Min Bi Yan Wan for a sinus infection/ cold symptoms that worked wonderful. http://www.drkangformulas.com/ This site has excellent patent formulas that work great, check out the muscle over use pills. We just got them at the school and one of the guys said they are great.

[Brian Dugger]

. . . One of my buddies used a Chinese cough medicine that I can not remember the name for but is pretty common if you search for patent medicine.

This is made from a loquat extract very sweet, but effective. My boys would rather that than the histex.

I also used Guo Min Bi Yan Wan for a sinus infection/ cold symptoms that worked wonderful. http://www.drkangformulas.com/ This site has excellent patent formulas that work great, check out the muscle over use pills. We just got them at the school and one of the guys said they are great.

I've used Gan Mao Ling for the cold and flu. The information for the Bi Yan Wan indicated use for allergies, I didn't know about using it for sinus infection. There was another patent formula I used for sinus infection that had skull cap in it, but the name eludes me at the moment.

[lhommedieu]

From time to time, I've used this patent formula (Yunnan Bai Yao) for serious injury and on one ocassion minor surgery. I'm interested in knowing if anyone out there has any internal OCM meds they use other than Y.B.Y.? There are plenty of topicals, please don't want that list (another product/subject, another thread).

Brian,

The standard TCM internal herbal prescription for acute injuries in Die Da Wan; you can find the formula in Bensky's Chinese herbal formula book. Bob Flaws Shaolin Secret Formulas (Blue Poppy Press) also has the 13x decoction that I use quite a lot. It also has a list of individual herbs that can be added in small amounts to the main formula as "messenger" or "envoy" herbs to different parts of the body. Re. Die Da Wan we make it as a honey pill which means that you powder the herbs fine and then add them to boiling honey. When the "mud" cools down you roll it into "pills" about the size of marble and cover with wax paper. You can add the same individual herbs listed in Flaws' book to the same effect; since I practice Filipino martial arts as well as Chinese I have a good supply of "hit pills" with herbs added for finger and hand injury etc. Qi Li San is another standard herbal formula for acute injuries (you should take it a few days after taking Die Da Wan) but since it has a Zhu Sha and She Xiang in it you might want to try "Resinol K" from Health Concerns.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Brian Dugger]

Brian,

The standard TCM internal herbal prescription for acute injuries in Die Da Wan; you can find the formula in Bensky's Chinese herbal formula book. Bob Flaws Shaolin Secret Formulas (Blue Poppy Press) also has the 13x decoction that I use quite a lot. It also has a list of individual herbs that can be added in small amounts to the main formula as "messenger" or "envoy" herbs to different parts of the body. Re. Die Da Wan we make it as a honey pill which means that you powder the herbs fine and then add them to boiling honey. When the "mud" cools down you roll it into "pills" about the size of marble and cover with wax paper. You can add the same individual herbs listed in Flaws' book to the same effect; since I practice Filipino martial arts as well as Chinese I have a good supply of "hit pills" with herbs added for finger and hand injury etc. Qi Li San is another standard herbal formula for acute injuries (you should take it a few days after taking Die Da Wan) but since it has a Zhu Sha and She Xiang in it you might want to try "Resinol K" from Health Concerns.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Excellent, however where I currently live, raw herbs from a chinese modular are hard to come by. I'll get the books or do a google search. If I have too much trouble getting the herbs we may need to PM each other our vital contact info to work out some exchange.

[Brian Dugger]

There was another patent formula I used for sinus infection that had skull cap in it, but the name eludes me at the moment.

I'm remembered. It is Yiehn Chiao.

[lhommedieu]

Excellent, however where I currently live, raw herbs from a chinese modular are hard to come by. I'll get the books or do a google search. If I have too much trouble getting the herbs we may need to PM each other our vital contact info to work out some exchange.

By all means, PM me if you would like to. I'll post the formula for Die Da Wan later on today: Bensky's Formulas and Strategies book cost is a bit prohibitive for just one formula! I do recommend Flaws' Secret Shaolin Formulas however because the 13x formula is very good and you can modify it to suit your purposes; you can therefore modify the Die Da Wan using the same individual herbs. Re. the "Resinol K" from Health Concerns: this is like a Chinese Patent formula because it is pre-made (it's a tincture that you place under the tongue with an eye dropper. As I said above, it's a good substitute for Qi Li San.

My teacher's book contains some good internal formulas (including two of the ones described above) and is an overall description of using Chinese medicine to treat martial arts and sports injuries. It's available through Amazon.com and is called A Tooth From the Tiger's Mouth. The first review about the book is mine.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[lhommedieu]

Die Da Wan, From Dan Bensky, Formulas and Strategies p. 328.

dang gui 30 gr.
chuan xiong 30 gr.
ru xiang 30 gr.
mo yao 60 gr.
xie jie 30 gr.
tu bie chong 30 gr.
ma huang 60 gr.
zi ran tong 30 gr.

You can order the herbs on-line from Ancient Way: http://www.ancientway.com/
Ask them to grind the herbs very fine. You will need to keep the herbs in air-tight container or they will lose their potency. Tom's book (see above) gives good instructions for making the honey pills.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Cory Nyenhuis]

Mr. Lamade will ancientway.com sell ma huang to a non acupuncturist. My teacher has had trouble getting it.
Thanks

[lhommedieu]

Mr. Lamade will ancientway.com sell ma huang to a non acupuncturist. My teacher has had trouble getting it.
Thanks

Cory,

You're right - sorry about that. I had (naively) assumed there'd be no issue with the raw herb mixed into a formula, but they must be worried about liability. Kamwo Herbs (see below) sells Die Da Wan but there is a caption that says "not available at this time." My best guess is that they're also exploring potential liability issues. I'll get back to you when I know for sure.

http://www.kamwo.com/Public/zhenggutuina.php

If you can't order ma huang on-line and don't have a Chinese herbalist in your area then you have the following options:

1. The Chinese patent Hsuing Tan Tieh Ta Wan. It's not bad - but a home made Die Da Wan is better due to the higher quality of the herbs.

2. Resinol K from Health Concerns (a substitute for Qi Li San)

3. The 13X formula from Bob Flaws' Shaolin Secret Formulas.

For any unfamiliar with ma huang: it does have potential side-effects, and is contra-indicated for example, for individuals with high blood pressure and for women who are pregnant. There is also the issue of responsible use of the herb. This means, among other things, that you use the Die Da Wan formula for its intended purpose and take the formula in the proper dosages and for a short period of time - all of which you would be doing, for example, if you were to take it for a few days as a Die Da formula. Re. dosage, assuming that you make 200 "hit pills" with the formula given above, the individual dosage of each pill, to be taken once a day, works out to approximately 3 grams per day - or roughly 20 mg of ephedrine per pill. You can also drop the amount of ma huang used in the formula above to 30 grams, which will lower the amount of ma huang in each pill, assuming that you make 200 pills, to 1 gram per pill, or about 10 mg of ephedrine.

For information outlining the potential risks of abusing ephedrea and the benefits of ma huang when used as traditionally prescribed, see the following websites:

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/mahuang.htm
http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?Id=877

Best,

Steve Lamade

[kozak]

I've used both for years, but really I see no difference in using Chinese meds with plain old heat rub I get in the local pharmacy. With injuries I use ice that heat. Also, because of the unregulated Chinese meds, I'm sceptical now of the stuff they put in, especially from mainland China. And I lived in Asia for several years!

[lhommedieu]

Mr. Lamade will ancientway.com sell ma huang to a non acupuncturist. My teacher has had trouble getting it.
Thanks

Just a follow-up: I posted this on one of the TCM forums and include a reply that was not contradicted in any of the 20 or so posts the followed on the same thread:

This issue came up recently on one of the martial arts forums. It
would appear that martial artists who would like to prepare their own
Die Da Wan honey pills for use for acute injury may find it difficult to
get the formula due to the presence of ma haung. As some are typicaly
from small towns in the mid-West, it's hard to find an herbalist who
could prescribe for them, so their options are to turn to patents
that are generally not as effective and/or actually not as safe to
use as raw herbs in the first place.

Since these are people who (a) understand that they are using a
specific formula for a specific purpose over a short period of time,
(b) understand the contra-indications and side-effects associated
with ma huang, (c) are NOT using the formula for such foolish
purposes as weight-loss or to get more "energy," and (d) are NOT
buying hundreds of pounds of Die Da Wan so that they can somehow
extract the ephedrine in the formula in a mid-West amphedamine lab:
it seems unfair that they are penalized for being such small fish in
a very large pond.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Here is the reply from a TCM practitioner:

one of these martial artists searching for herbs for shaolin dit dat jows
found his way to me, via the internet. he's in TN, and i'm in WNC, but he
was happy to come in to see me for an herbal consult. her brought the px's
with him that he wanted filled. he was legit, and i felt comfortable, and
so filled the px's for him. i actually went to great lengths to find
obscure herbs that i don't carry in my pharm so to preserve the integrity of
the px's.

an illustration of a way that we can work with the folks and still remaining
guardians of the chinese herbal tradition.

The bottom line is that the herbalists on this forum, which is pretty representative of mainstream TCM practitioners in the U.S., are not willing to prescribe raw herbs without a face-to-face consultation. (It's interesting to note that they have no problem, in general, with Chinese patents.) At issue is not only the liability issue but the political context of how to best ensure that control over the practice of Chinese herbology stays within the TCM community and is not regulated to death by the government due to a hypothetical incident.

I can't help noting, in passing, that death due to overdose of aspirin probably outnumbers death by overdose of raw ma haung by 1000's to one, proportionately.

I should add that the reply begs the question of fair access: why should someone have to travel 2 hours out of their way to find an herbalist to write a formula? At least though, the practitioner who wrote the reply above was open to the martial artist's request and felt comfortable once the rationale for the formulas was given. A google search for "chinese herbs omaha nebraska" did turn up some acupuncturists/herbalists: I hope that your teacher can find someone with a similar frame of mind.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Brian Dugger]

. . .

I can't help noting, in passing, that death due to overdose of aspirin probably outnumbers death by overdose of raw ma haung by 1000's to one, proportionately.

I should add that the reply begs the question of fair access: why should someone have to travel 2 hours out of their way to find an herbalist to write a formula? At least though, the practitioner who wrote the reply above was open to the martial artist's request and felt comfortable once the rationale for the formulas was given. A google search for "chinese herbs omaha nebraska" did turn up some acupuncturists/herbalists: I hope that your teacher can find someone with a similar frame of mind.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Steve, I believe the Ma Huang is translated as 'horse coin'. Ma Huang (I think) is nux vomica in the latin. It is the source of strychnine {sp?} we use it in D-CON, warfarin, coumadin, etc . . . It is also an active component in Dit Da Jow. I understand its use and also appreciate why it is very controlled.

-Best & thanks

[Dale Dugas]

Brian,

Ma Huang is not Nux Vomica which is Strychnine which in Chinese is Ma Chien Zi, or simply Ma Chien. Ma Huang is Ephedra.

Hope this helps.

[Brian Dugger]

Brian,

Ma Huang is not Nux Vomica which is Strychnine which in Chinese is Ma Chien Zi, or simply Ma Chien. Ma Huang is Ephedra.

Hope this helps.

Sorry, thanks for the clarification. I was operating on faulty memory.

Ephedra, now I see why it is highly scrutinized.

[Cory Nyenhuis]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I know the acupuncturists here in town and one of them is a business partner with a teacher I had in massage school that is a TCM herbalist. He once called my teacher who also is a practicing TCM herbalist about ma huang. Neither one could get it. My teacher did a ton of research into making trauma pills and found a recipe that works very well without it, I was just curious since my teacher and I had talked about it and it was in the recipe on this discussion.

Train Hard,
Cory

[lhommedieu]

It would appear to be an issue in Nebraska then? Following is an exerpt from a book that details the regulation of ephedra and contains a passage about Nebraska regulation in particular:

From Herbal Defense, pages 483-487:
The Ephedra Chronicles

Ephedra is the oldest known Chinese herbal remedy. Also called ma huang, it contains the natural stimulant compounds ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, from which the active ingredients in OTC asthma drugs and in decongestants were synthesized. The Chinese used it for a variety of purposes, and it is an excellent natural sinus decongestant and asthma remedy.

Ephedra has been used safely as a medicine for thousands of years. More recently (much to the chagrin of many herbalists and other natural health practitioners) ephedra has been promoted for "weight control" and in irresponsible "herbal high" street drug knockoffs (more on this later in the chapter), sometimes in combination with other stimulants, which can augment potential side effects such as high blood pressure and heart palpitations.

Ephedra has made the news several times recently because investigators linked it to several deaths. The links have not been proven, and other possible co-factors have yet to be explored, but regulatory authorities are reacting. Local and state governments are proposing, and sometimes passing, bans or limits on ephedra-containing products. In August of 1995, a coalition of state drug regulators wrote to the FDA asking the agency to limit ma huang to prescription use only.

The Texas Department of Health proposed (though later withdrew) a potentially precedent-settingattempt at regulation that's a textbook example of the double standard described earlier: It would have banned the sale of ephedra (ma huang) and ephedrine-containing dietary supplements, while preserving the sale of pharmaceutical products containing the same extracts, including Primatene®, Breathe-Aid®, Bronkaid®, epherine-based nose drops, and "generic equivalents."

But if the FDA considers ephedrine-containing products to be safe, then they are equally safe whether sold by a drug company or a natural products company, and all should be available. Why take only the natural versions of a substance off the market? Where is the logic in making pharmaceutical medicines out of ephedra's compounds, then banning the natural, original source while keeping the chemically based copies?

In a paper clearly stating the inconsistencies and biases of the Texas proposal (and, by extension, of similar proposals that have followed from other states since then), Herb Research Foundation president Rob McCaleb pointed out that tea and coffee have an ancient history of use as stimulant beverages. Ephedra too is a long-used stimulant beverage. All three have been brewed to make a stimulant beverage for thousands of years. Except for ephedra, we legally classify these stimulant beverages as foods.

Why is this? If it's because the ephedra is concentrated in supplements, McCaleb makes another argument: when we concentrate a food, is it still a food? Instant coffee, for example, is a concentrated form of coffee, with over three times as much caffeine by weight as coffee. Same with instant tea. Ma huang extract is made by the same process as instant coffee, and is similarly concentrated, with about three times as much alkaloid as the whole herb.

There are other examples of food substances that are highly concentrated, yet which are nevertheless not being targeted. McCaleb rattles off a list of other concentrated food extracts which could be toxic in high enough doses: wintergreen extract, cinnamon oil, almond extract and horseradish. All of these concentrated foods can be, and are, used safely every day by millions of people. To single out ephedra is very odd, unless one wishes to acknowledge that the only reason to regulate it out of existence while letting the others stand is because ephedra is used as a natural health supplement.

Other dietary supplements, such as vitamins and minerals, are concentrated forms as well. These are regulated in the U.S. as foods, under laws established by the United States Congress. McCaleb emphasizes that the fact that such nutritional supplements are concentrated is the whole point, the very nature of dietary supplements: "They are concentrated ways to supplement the diet with something in a convenient form." Thus, some herbal supplements are concentrated as well.

The TDH proposal exempted over-the counter (OTC) drugs Vivarin® and NoDoze®, which contain pure caffeine. No one would call them food. Primatene® is an OTC drug which contains ephedrine, the major active chemical from ma huang. Millions of Americans use this drug every day to treat asthma. Sudafed® contains another stimulant alkaloid from ma huang, pseudoephedrine. It too is used by millions of Americans. Pseudoephedrine has a less potent action on the heart than ephedrine, but is still contraindicated in those with high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, thyroid disease or prostate enlargement. Some supermarkets are taking ma huang off their shelves, yet those supermarkets still sell coffee, Primatene®, and Sudafed®.

Interestingly, the TDH proposal made a specific point of forbidding sale of supplements that combine ephedrine and caffeine--as many "weight loss" preparations do, for example--implying that ephedrine and caffeine are dangerous together. Yet despite such a ban, ephedrine and caffeine would continue to be consumed together by asthmatics who use Primatene® and drink coffee, or people taking Sudafed and drinking cola. Obviously, there were no plans to regulate this--no warnings on OTC bronchdilator, decongestant, and stimulant drugs to warn people against drinking coffee, and no caution on caffeine-containing foods to warn people not to take those medications.

McCaleb points out that that quantity consumed is often the only real issue with regard to safety. "The best we can say about the safety of any food or drug is that it is safe 'when used in reasonable amounts by normal consumers'...nearly anything can be abused: coffee, Primatene®, butter, ma huang...[and] there are people who may be especially sensitive to certain things. For example, many people can't drink milk, eat peanuts, or use caffeinated beverages. Some cannot safely use Primatene®, as the warning label states." I must also ask how substances like tobacco and alcohol can escape bans while an herbal product such as ephedra is marked. The outrage is disproportionate to a highly questionable degree.

NOTE: While the specific Texas proposal analyzed above was withdrawn, another very much lke it has actually become reality in Nebraska. In July 1996, the Nebraska State Legislature passed a law prohibiting the over-the-counter sale of any ephedra- or ephedra-containing supplement products. These products are now controlled substances that can only be dispensed by written prescription. As described above, FDA-approved OTC drug products are exempted. Only dietary supplements containing ephedra or ephedrine are restricted. Meanwhile, the state of Ohio has amended its total ban on the sale of all ma huang products.

Herbal supplements should be regulated in a way that is consistent with the way foods, OTC drugs, and most vitamin products are labeled and sold. That means determining at what levels the substance is safe for "average" consumers, making recommendations for dosages, and requiring cautionary labels warning those with certain health conditions to avoid the products or seek medical advice before using. Scientific experts have testified to the FDA that ephedra should not be banned, but rather sold with label warnings and dose limits.

Consumers share the responsibility with the herb industry and health professions to act sensibly with regard to herb use. It may be that dieters ruined ma huang for the rest of us--taking too much and for the wrong reasons, in the wrong context. Herbal "high" products are another misguided use (see later in the chapter for more on this). Good things can always be used for bad purposes. To blame the results of this kind of usage on the herb itself is illogical.

When I belonged to a health club a few years ago, I heard more about ephedra from people trying to lose "weight" than I ever heard about it anywhere else. When ephedra is plucked out of the context of its use in Chinese medicine, that phenomenon is not ephedra's problem. It's people, their thinking, and what they are trying to do to their bodies that creates trouble. These problems come from our culture.

In addition, to use the dieter as an example of the average medicinal herb consumer is extremely misleading. It is predictable, and should be taken into account, that people in our "weight"-obsessed, dieting-happy culture will over-interpret the potential benefit of an herbal stimulant. They will assume "more is better" if it is suggested that a substance will make them thin. Historically, dieting consumers are more likely to take any strategy (whether diet or pill) to extremes. And the lack of overal good health among many dieters makes them poor subjects for determining how an herb or any other substance might affect people in general.

It is also unfortunate that companies will package herbal stimulants accordingly to appeal to this huge market segment. I don't agree with this because I think "weight" loss in general is misguided, and I think the idea that any one pill of any kind can "handle" a lifestyle issue that has many different factors needs to be put to rest.

Herbal medicine is not about "herbal stimulants." I personally had great results with ma huang for energy and warming early in my herbal treatment--but I was using it medicinally, I discussed it with an herbalist, and I discontinued its use when I didn't need it any more. I also used the whole herb as a tea, not pills. Many of the herb users I interviewed have used ma huang short-term with absolutely no problems.

Finally, if ephedra was so dangerous, the Chinese would not have prized it so highly for more than 5,000 years. It's certainly an insult to Chinese medicine to suggest that Chinese practitioners wouldn't know if one of their most valued botanicals was picking people off left and right.

The whole ephedra scene is a great example of why the problem is lack of education and cultural thinking patterns, not the substance itself. This is why we have worked so hard to evoke a larger, integrative context to surround your use of herbal medicine. Information on specific remedies and their uses, by itself, in a void is too easily misused

The Herb Research Foundation has an "Herbal Stimulant Factsheet" which compares caffeine and ephedrine content of various foods and drugs. It also discusses the relative safety of such products, and provides contraindication information about persons who should avoid either substance.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Brian Dugger]

It would appear to be an issue in Nebraska then? Following is an exerpt from a book that details the regulation of ephedra and contains a passage about Nebraska regulation in particular:



Best,

Steve Lamade

True enough, but I thought the government "cracked down" on ephedra use altogether because of the pro football player that died at training camp in Florida from use/abuse of a product with ephedra/ephedra derivatives in it.

[lhommedieu]

True enough, but I thought the government "cracked down" on ephedra use altogether because of the pro football player that died at training camp in Florida from use/abuse of a product with ephedra/ephedra derivatives in it.

It varies by state. In New York State, where I live, for example, products designed for weight loss that contain ephedra products are banned but over-the-counter medications containing ephedra derivatives or variations (cold medicines e.g.,) and ma huang as used in traditional Chinese herbal medicine are not banned. I had assumed that this held true for Nebraska, for example, but it appears that I was wrong.

I would check back periodically with Kamwo pharmacy (see above). The chances are excellent that they will be selling the Die Da Wan honey pills before too long.

Best,

Steve Lamade