kiai

**sheb** · 01-24-2007, 08:13

how do you kiai? which sound do you use? do you have special exercises for training your kiai? do you (or your sensei) think that a loud kiai is important (i know a sensei who say that a kiai have to be as loud as possible)?

btw: do you do special ki exercises sometimes?

**Laurent** · 01-24-2007, 09:13

That's a secret!!!

**drivica** · 01-24-2007, 09:40

Kime and KIAI are foundamental in all japanese martial arts. In my school I teach breathing and shouthing as one of the most important aspects of fight, I allow students to select their own KIAI method, my favorite is using "heeeeeep" initial sound while doinf first technique (during block or initial movement) and loud "HEEEIIIIIIIII" during execution of final strike or lock or throw.

**Nadine** · 01-24-2007, 10:09

What is the relation between kiai and the alphabet?As far as I remember the japanese alphabet starts with an a and ends with the o?That's why the kiai should be like an a and the defence kiai should more resemble an o.But what was the relation?

**Brian Dugger** · 01-24-2007, 12:01

Originally Posted by sheb

how do you kiai? which sound do you use? do you have special exercises for training your kiai? do you (or your sensei) think that a loud kiai is important (i know a sensei who say that a kiai have to be as loud as possible)?

btw: do you do special ki exercises sometimes?

Kiai/Aiki, tools just tools. Treat them as such. A kiai is nothing more than a shout bringing the mind and body together in a moment. Beit a finish or initiative, it is a tool that serves the purpose of bringing two things together to act as one. Shotokan tenet: One punch, one kill. I believe how it is articulated is up to the individual, as well as the volume. As far as special exercises for training kiai, there is none (as far as I'm concerned). Just train.

I take that back, one exception for training kiai perhaps would be ukemi, tobukemi to be precise.

**WhiteBeltJones** · 01-24-2007, 12:35

I don't like to yell much, so my kiai is a short "ha!" sound.

I primarily kiai during ukemi.

**Tripitaka of AA** · 01-24-2007, 15:30

Whilst Kurt, Brian and Ivica are speaking from outside Shorinji Kempo, their words show how common the basic principles are among the Japanese-based martial arts. I find these similarities remind me how "normal" it should feel, yet for many people it can be one of the most daunting parts of the training. Giving a hearty yell when performing the crucial move should be as natural as bringing your hand to your mouth when sneezing (kids need reminding, but once you get the habit you soon realise how important it is to get it right).

As for the opening question;

I was taught that the sound of choice was not as critical as the timing and the volume. Consequently our Dojo resounded to a crescendo made up of predominantly "yaah", some "uurgh" and the occasional "eep!". The only particular recomendation was that during Embu it can help to use a variety of different sounds just to avoid sounding like a broken record (or one of those Dance tracks that sound like a car alarm). Having said that, the noise should be as unconscious an act as the sneeze.

And tobo ukemi... surely that's just "WHeeeeee!"

**sheb** · 01-24-2007, 17:11

Originally Posted by drivica

Kime and KIAI are foundamental in all japanese martial arts. In my school I teach breathing and shouthing as one of the most important aspects of fight, I allow students to select their own KIAI method, my favorite is using "heeeeeep" initial sound while doinf first technique (during block or initial movement) and loud "HEEEIIIIIIIII" during execution of final strike or lock or throw.

so which martial art do you teach?
i don't know but how does "heeeeeep" sound? similar to "beeeeeeeep" but without "b"?

**sheb** · 01-24-2007, 18:02

btw: if you perhaps do a mixed sound (like "aaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii") you can choose more than one option ...

**drivica** · 01-24-2007, 18:28

Originally Posted by sheb

so which martial art do you teach?
i don't know but how does "heeeeeep" sound? similar to "beeeeeeeep" but without "b"?

I teach gendai jujutsu and kenjutsu, with lots emphasis on sport jujutsu (a mixture of judo and karate) and sport kenjutsu (aka chanbara). please visit my site if you are interested.

You are right about the sound. It is shorter than I wrote, like as when you say "sleep" or "deep". For those who read latin letters like in Germany or in Serbia, proper would be "iiiiiip", sort of rising sound.

I agree with very reasonable post above - kiai must be prefectly spontaneous and natural, just as described in Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five rings.

Best regards!

**Luar** · 01-25-2007, 16:03

Originally Posted by Nadine

What is the relation between kiai and the alphabet?As far as I remember the japanese alphabet starts with an a and ends with the o?That's why the kiai should be like an a and the defence kiai should more resemble an o.But what was the relation?

As I recall the esoteric explanation give to our kenshi is that "Ah" is the first sound a person makes when they are born. "Oh" is the last sound they will make when they die - the final expulsion of air. Thus kiai is not only a way to summon energy but signifies that you're spirit is very much alive. I will ask him more about this tonight.

**sheb** · 01-26-2007, 05:48

Originally Posted by Brian Dugger

one exception for training kiai perhaps would be ukemi, tobukemi to be precise

how to train kiai with ukemi? what is tobukemi (=tobo ukemi?)?

**Brian Dugger** · 01-26-2007, 06:34

Originally Posted by sheb

how to train kiai with ukemi? what is tobukemi (=tobo ukemi?)?

Timing, specifically coordinated timing with balance are crucial to any of the arts. This teaches one to know where they are in the roll in relation to the impact. The ground does not move. It is the the immovable opponent for the beginner, so the beginner must learn how to move with it or around it, over it etc... Once learning how to move the body as a whole, not independent parts with the center, then we go to tobukemi. Hard aerial falling is necessary for one's own protection in the dojo. An uke's soul responsibility in the moment of waza or technique is ukemi (this is related to kimi- energy focus). Naturally, we as humans tend to want to grab and hold/hang on to things in particular when we lose our balance. If you don't believe me just watch and infant begin learning how to walk. Note the infant's breathing when balance is lost and note the body's active response while the little toddler hedges around the coffee table. Trust me, you don't want to be holding your breath when you hit the ground. So, teaching timing of breath for falls is crucial in coordinating the exhalation with the impact.

Originally Posted by Luar

As I recall the esoteric explanation give to our kenshi is that "Ah" is the first sound a person makes when they are born. "Oh" is the last sound they will make when they die - the final expulsion of air. Thus kiai is not only a way to summon energy but signifies that you're spirit is very much alive. I will ask him more about this tonight.

From the chinese taoist notion of yin/yang (yahng, not yaang the redneck pronunciation). I spent a little time doing some Chi Kung and learned some fundamental concepts of breathing in coordination with the body. Breathing is an unconcious thing, autonomic response. Body movement is a concious action. The thought is to bring the mind and body into better unison. The first thing we do at birth before crying is draw in the first breath (yin) to be able to produce the sound of crying. While the last thing we do at death is breath out (yang) which is final silence. It all comes full circle. Life is a passive/active process, energy in and out, black wire/white wire, ebb and flow--yin and yang.

Btw, in reishiki when bowing, left knee first to kneel then right, it is left hand first then right. Obi is tied left over right, lapel is left over right. The Japanese are buried with the lapels right over left. See how thorough the concept is?

**Luar** · 01-29-2007, 09:58

Originally Posted by Luar

As I recall the esoteric explanation give to our kenshi is that "Ah" is the first sound a person makes when they are born. "Oh" is the last sound they will make when they die - the final expulsion of air. Thus kiai is not only a way to summon energy but signifies that you're spirit is very much alive. I will ask him more about this tonight.

I was mistaken. According to Sensei, kiai, is just kiai. It has no relation to the Japanese alphabet and is not sound for the sake of making a sound. It is simply a way to focus your breath and energy.

**Brian Dugger** · 01-29-2007, 19:37

Originally Posted by Luar

I was mistaken. According to Sensei, kiai, is just kiai. It has no relation to the Japanese alphabet and is not sound for the sake of making a sound. It is simply a way to focus your breath and energy.

I'm sorry, but it sounds trivialized. What we're doing is coordinating reflex with concious action so that it becomes one and the same. Mind and body united in the moment or appropriate instant. It becomes supreme timing. This is when thought and action are one in the same, a state of doing and done is and is not. I don't intend for this to sound like mysticism, because it definitely is not. Shin no mushin. (I hope that is correct, if it is not then it is certain to be corrected).

**Nina** · 03-19-2007, 17:15

Hi, at which time do you start the kiai? When does the sound come?

**Tripitaka of AA** · 03-19-2007, 22:57

Originally Posted by Nina

Hi, at which time do you start the kiai? When does the sound come?

First thing in the morning, or whenever I wake from a nap. I let out a slow, yet quite loud, guttural groan as I force my tired body to roll off the bed (or up from the floor - it depends on how well I've been sleeping). Whilst this may irritate my family (and attract complaints from neighbours), it does serve as another reminder that "kiai" is a concept that is familiar to cultures that don't necesarily have a name for it

For atemi, I'd say it begins as an expulsion of air at launch of the strike and continues until the fist explodes through the other side of the opponents skull, spraying fragments of bone and flesh across the air (or for a Shorinji Kenshi, that would be until the correct kyusho has been struck with perfect angle. distance. timing. etc and the now thwarted attacker is incapable of responding)....

Apologies if my playful answers are not as serious as you were hoping for