racist japan

[Webmaster]

They did worse too. Far worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military "murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

Yes, I would say that 6,000,000 human beings murdered is far worse.

[dao]

I do too (editied that in to respond to Robert).

I think that all people and all races are capable of wonderful things and horrible things. So it bothers me when one culture (in this case Japanese) is pulled out and examined this way. I don't think all Americans are horrible people (and I try not to be) but, there are some I wonder about. I believe in looking at yourself and your own culture first. I'm bowing out of this topic now

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Can we get back on topic now?

Racism in Japan - Living with it and coping with it.

[Mekugi]

We did worse. During WWII, we put Japanese-Americans in Camps such as Manzanar ( http://www.nps.gov/manz ) And before anyone says that was strategically necessary ask yourself why German-Americans didn't get the same treatment.

Yes, yes I know. We had an "interment camp" on the Oregon/Idaho border, and stripped Oregon of some very fine American Citizens and farmers all in the name of fear..been there done that. We did the same to the Native Americans in the 19th century. It's was and is a travesty. It does not go on today, though....some would argue that Reservations are merely an extension of the past.

[Mekugi]

Anyone else believe this thread should be moved to the "Politics" forum??

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

It should stay in Japanese culture IMHO.

Reason being; The topic is about current day Japan and living with the racism and xenophobia of the indigenous people. You and Peter still live there, David and myself have lived there. We have dealt with it.

Either that or split the thread and debate on how internment camps are a by product of propaganda, fear, racism and xenophobia.

My tuppence on the matter.

[fifthchamber]

I don't believe that Japan is special in being particularly "anti foreigner"...Nearly all countries seem to have a natural instinct to group themselves into the "in units" and look at those who come from outside as "aliens", America, England, all countries do it to some degree...Americans in Texas I believe have a big issue with Mexicans coming into the USA...God knows why, it is big enough..And yet it's the same thing in essence..What Japan has to offer is better than the negatives which is why I don't mind being stopped occasionally by the police to check that I've not stolen my bike from some unsuspecting woman...And they are at least polite when they do stop you..Something coppers in the UK don't always manage..Hell, they usually have good stories about martial arts and why England is their favourite country once they find out that it IS my bike...Had a great discussion about "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" last time...A bit random, but fun nonetheless..
It's all the same, maybe in Japan it's easier to spot those who aren't from the country, but it's the same to some degree everywhere else, and even in Japan it is slowly changing..
Regards.

[Webmaster]

It should stay in Japanese culture IMHO.

Reason being; The topic is about current day Japan and living with the racism and xenophobia of the indigenous people. You and Peter still live there, David and myself have lived there. We have dealt with it.

Either that or split the thread and debate on how internment camps are a by product of propaganda, fear, racism and xenophobia.

My tuppence on the matter.

Better yet, let's just drop the comparison's on who is worse, interment camps and the like. I think the original topic, if we stay on track should give us plenty of discussion.

OK, my take on the matter.

Whenever you are the foreigner in a different country where the inhabitants are of a different race, you can expect to be treated differently. Yes, the Japanese are racist. So are the Chinese, the Koreans, and to a certain extent, the Filipinos as well. I have seen it with my own eyes over the years, lived it, and ultimately you learn to deal with it. You take the nuances of the culture, learn them the best you can, and try hard to not step over the line. You remain polite and respectful. If you behave well, then you will more than likely find yourself being treated likewise. The problem is that there have been too many Westerners that have made total asses of themselves and the rest of us suffer for it. When you do get treated like crap by someone that is truly racist (been there and done that), you deal with it like an adult, don't throw a fit and realize that you are in their country. You either deal with it, or you leave. Really just that simple.

[AndrewSimonsen]

I lived in Okinawa when I was younger, and though I don't remember much my parents have never said their was any discrimination against whites. In fact from what I have been told most people they encountered were very nice. Then again the Japanese from what I was told don't consider the Okinawans to be Japanese and the Okinawans agree with them on this so maybe Okinawa doesn't count.

[P Goldsbury]

has anyone else here ever travlled to japan, I have extensivly due to my fathers job and have found the japanese to be very polite, though I suspect they are being polite through their teeth. They are the most anti foriegner , xenophobic people I have ever meet in my life.

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and some places will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen.

any one with similer experiances here

I think you are over-generalizing somewhat.

I live in Japan and have lived here since 1980, which will be 27 years come March.

I have generally found the Japanese whom I have met to be very polite, but there were indeed a few who were probably being polite 'through their teeth', as you put it. As for being "the most anti-foreign, xenophobic people I have ever met", well, obviously I do not have your experience. I have travelled to about 15 countries in the world as a tourist and have also lived for two years in three others as a resident, including Japan. Perhaps the Japanese treat foreign tourists and foreign residents differently.

As for your last paragraph, this has not been my experience. On the basis of my own experience in Japan, I would amend it to read:

"Most bars and hotels welcome tourists, but some have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and there are some places that will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen",

and add that these bars and hotels tend to be in the entertainment districts, such as Kabuki-cho in Tokyo and Nagarekawa/Yagen-bori in Hiroshima, for example.

So, there we are. I sign off here, by the way, since I am not really interested in discussing, on the basis of personal experience, whether the Japanese AS A PEOPLE or CULTURE are more or less racist than any other.

Kind regards,

[Ron Beaubien]

Hello,

I thought some of you might be interested in the following, if you hadn't seen them before.

Signs at Japanese businesses which openly deny service to foreigners:

http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html

Japanese universities that racially discriminate against foreigners:

http://www.debito.org/blacklist.html

Even No. 1 Travel (a subsidiary of H.I.S. Travel), which "has been serving the foreign community for 21 years," recently admitted to charging foreigners higher fares than Japanese people:

http://www.debito.org/HISpricing.html

How about the recently published "Gaijin Hanzai Ura File" which is about crime committed by foreigners in Japan, but then even includes a section on foreign guys picking up Japanese women, which is certainly not illegal:

http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=192

The list goes on and on.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[David Craik]

It does bring about some interesting moments. In Hiroshima we were eating in a restaurant and a Japanese man came in and loudly said to the waitress something on the lines of 'What are those *&%$ gaijin doing here?' I guess he figured he would not be understood.

Instead of getting angry I had our waitress take him over a beer (a little sneaky way of letting him know we knew what he said). It was declined, the waitress said, because he told her he 'doesn't drink'. Yet 10 minutes later there he was drinking a beer. Well, I'm a little hardheaded, so I watched out of the corner of my eye to see when he was about done with his beer and then took him another one over in person. He could hardly use the same excuse now.

He was thereafter quite friendly and we laughed and joked quite a bit. The waitress was probably convinced we were all loony though.

The Japanese are a rather befuddling folk to the Western mind, though I think subconsciously we want to 'pin down' an entire race of people as monolithic in nature. In my experience some are incredibly gracious, most very friendly, and then you have quite a few which are xenophobic - or even some combination of all three.

I've been to so many countries I've lost count, and Japan is the only place I've been barred from an establishment for being a round-eye (using that quaint crossed arms gesture) - but it is also the only place a complete stranger has literally gone blocks out of their way to show me where something was or invited me out of the blue to picnic with their family as I happened to just be walking by in a park. That's why 'The Roads to Sata' is such a good book, it really rings true and brings to mind similar experiences.

But I dunno, it's hard for me to be outraged by such things anymore. It's their country and perhaps I'm getting too old to care.

* cross-posted with Mr. Beaubien *

[Mekugi]

Hello,

I thought some of you might be interested in the following, if you hadn't seen them before.
-------------------------
The list goes on and on.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Ahhh yes, I was wondering when David Aldwinkle was going to enter into the conversation. He has a lot of intereting things to say and is a "social activist" for sure but I do believe he goes out of his way to find racism and perhaps goes a little overboard on some things. In others he is spots the nickel right off.

Incidentally, I have been trying to find that sign in Nagoya, I really looked all over and I could never spot it. I wonder if they took it down or if someone just put it up and snapped a photo outside a gentleman's club.

[Koshu]

Ahhh yes, I was wondering when David Aldwinkle was going to enter into the conversation. He has a lot of intereting things to say and is a "social activist" for sure but I do believe he goes out of his way to find racism and perhaps goes a little overboard on some things. In others he is spots the nickel right off.

Incidentally, I have been trying to find that sign in Nagoya, I really looked all over and I could never spot it. I wonder if they took it down or if someone just put it up and snapped a photo outside a gentleman's club.

OK, so you didn't find the sign. The better question is, did you find the club??

[Mekugi]

OK, so you didn't find the sign. The better question is, did you find the club??

It's supposed to be at Club Ozone (O-zone-ay) which is a popular spot over on this end of the island. I've been by there a couple times and could not find it. Found the club though....not my cup of tea. Most of the places David lists are places I would rather not go to begin with....in fact.

[unkokusai]

has anyone else here ever travlled to japan, I have extensivly due to my fathers job and have found the japanese to be very polite, though I suspect they are being polite through their teeth. They are the most anti foriegner , xenophobic people I have ever meet in my life.

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome and some places will only let you in if you are accompanied with a japanese citzen.

any one with similer experiances here

No, I don't agree. I think you have taken some bad experiences and extrapolated irresponsibly. There is racism and exclusion in every country, city, and small town in this world, but in most places there are many more good, welcoming, and open folks too.

[unkokusai]

Most bars , hotels have signs telling westerners that they are not welcome

"most"? No, that is simply untrue.

[Koshu]

It's supposed to be at Club Ozone (O-zone-ay) which is a popular spot over on this end of the island. I've been by there a couple times and could not find it. Found the club though....not my cup of tea. Most of the places David lists are places I would rather not go to begin with....in fact.

Just as well. . . . Less trouble for us round-eyes and round-eyes-by-association to get into over there I guess.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

"most"? No, that is simply untrue.

Agreed. Bit of a gross over generalization that.

[allan]

The Japanese are a rather befuddling folk to the Western mind, though I think subconsciously we want to 'pin down' an entire race of people as monolithic in nature. In my experience some are incredibly gracious, most very friendly, and then you have quite a few which are xenophobic - or even some combination of all three.

My mileage has been about the same.

One of my students was a businessman who ran a security company. He seemed convinced that much of the violent crime in Japan was due to foreigners and he seemed anti-foreigner generally. Interesting that he had no problem discussing this with me during our lessons. As we got got to know each other a little better and realized that maybe we shared some old-fashioned Japanese values he said that I ought to marry his daughter.

I'm not even sure if he realized his contradiction.

On the trains sometimes, even when full, there would be empty seats beside me. On one memorable ride into Tokyo a grandma and her grand-daughter were sitting beside me. Grandma struck up a conversation and ended up telling me that she thought that maybe I was Japanese in a previous life.

All kinds of provocative contradictions.