japanese language

[Jon_Bahey]

Now that I have been learning japanese for about a month and it is going very well! still a little difficult but easier then french and italian ! anyways I would like to bein to learn how to write in japanese. Does anyone have any good book suggestions for learning japanese (kanji??) thanks everyone!!!

[seidogirl]

I've been taking a Japanese language class at a local college and the book we are using is Japanese for Busy People, 3rd edition ISBN 4770030088. The book comes with a CD and it does include kanji and hirigana. I've only had one class so far, but it's very interesting!

Are you taking a class or learning on your own?

[Jon_Bahey]

Im learning on my own and being taught by one of the sempais of my dojo. I know enough to have a good conversation I just have a really short vocabulary everything else Im good at.

[seidogirl]

That's great! I think the hardest thing to learn is the kanji. I'd like to get good enough so that I can read some signs. There are over 4,000 kanji characters, so learning them all would be quite a challenge!

[P Goldsbury]

That's great! I think the hardest thing to learn is the kanji. I'd like to get good enough so that I can read some signs. There are over 4,000 kanji characters, so learning them all would be quite a challenge!

No. There are around 50,000 Chinese characters that have become part of the Japanese writing system, but most Japanese (in my experience) tell me that they know no more than around 5,000 to 10,000. There is a similar situation with English. The big Oxford English Dictionary records about 500,000 words, but I doubt whether all these are known by the average native speaker of English.

An interesting issue for me is to what extent a native speaker of a language needs to know the entire vocabulary of the language, as recorded in the dictionaries. I think that the word stock of the native speaker is far fewer than the number of words in the language, but the native speaker 'knows' the language 'fluently', which means that it would be unwise to question his/her judgment about the grammar.

Best wishes,

[seidogirl]

No. There are around 50,000 Chinese characters that have become part of the Japanese writing system, but most Japanese (in my experience) tell me that they know no more than around 5,000 to 10,000. There is a similar situation with English. The big Oxford English Dictionary records about 500,000 words, but I doubt whether all these are known by the average native speaker of English.

It's highly doubtful most native speakers of English would know that many words. I didn't know so many Chinese characters have become part of the Japanese writing system. Wow...

An interesting issue for me is to what extent a native speaker of a language needs to know the entire vocabulary of the language, as recorded in the dictionaries. I think that the word stock of the native speaker is far fewer than the number of words in the language, but the native speaker 'knows' the language 'fluently', which means that it would be unwise to question his/her judgment about the grammar.

Best wishes,

Most of us know the language well enough to get by, so that's considered "fluent", but I guess it depends on what is the true definition of fluent. It's very possible to know the language, but have poor grammar. I'm an editor and I see that all the time, believe me.

[Jon_Bahey]

also dont they have so many characters/words because there are like 1-15 different japanese words for english words. Like there are 9? words for sword.

[lefuet]

No. There are around 50,000 Chinese characters that have become part of the Japanese writing system, but most Japanese (in my experience) tell me that they know no more than around 5,000 to 10,000. ...

I've read that since 1946 writing reforms have reduced the use of Chinese characters to at the moment (book is from 1990) 1945 standard characters.

[seidogirl]

I was talking to a guy who is from Japan today and he told me there are over 4,000 characters. Some of them are rarely or never used though.

[Jeff C.]

Polly, if I ever decide to take a class in Japanese, I am going to invest in one of the little palm-translator devices. I have seen many Japanese with these devices, and they help out greatly. Some even have a speaker so you can hear the proper pronunciation. You can enter many different character sets and languages for translations to other languages. The ones I have seen even accept short phrases in addition to single words/characters.

Dr. Goldsbury lives in Japan; he can probably tell you where you can purchase one. In fact, Doctor, I would like to know also. Any info you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Jeff Cook

[seidogirl]

Jeff,

I saw one of those at Borders bookstore and I would have bought one, but they were only for European languages. If there is one for Japanese, I'd definitely buy it.

Polly

[Jeff C.]

Cool. I'm sure they can be programmed with different languages. Do you know who made it, and how much was it?

Jeff Cook

[Jonathan Randall]

Cool. I'm sure they can be programmed with different languages. Do you know who made it, and how much was it?

Jeff Cook

I'm sure by looking and doing further research you should be able to find something less expensive, but here's a starting point:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&s=electronics

I'd also look at the Border's ones, as mentioned, and see if you can purchase a Japanese chip (my old Spanish translator took French and German chips as, IIRC, inexpensive options).

[P Goldsbury]

I've read that since 1946 writing reforms have reduced the use of Chinese characters to at the moment (book is from 1990) 1945 standard characters.

The Japanese Education Ministry has periodically simplified the characters in common use. So the average Japanese kanji manual will have around 2,000 characters, which is the minimum necessary for daily competence.

However, even with this 2,000, you will not get very far if you try to read a work of literature. In one of my classes I used a Japanese translation of Descartes' Meditations and my students had a very tough time reading it. The translation was made in 1949 and used many characters that had not been simplified. They could not read these characters because they had never learned them.

In my office I have Morohashi's Dai Kanwa Jiten, a massive multi-volume dictionary which lists around 50,000 characters: all the Chinese characters that have come into Japanese.

For those interested a book that deals with these issues is Kanji Politics: Language Policy and Japanese Script, by Nanette Gottlieb, published in 1995 by Kegan Paul International in their Japanese Studies series.

To Jeff Cook. Let me ask around among my students. If anybody will know, they will.

[seidogirl]

I found one on the Franklin site for $100. It also has other languages as well as Japanese. I think I might buy this one. http://www.franklin.com/estore/dictionary/TGA-470/

Question for P. Goldsbury: Are the Chinese characters that have come into Japanese pronounced the same in Chinese as they are in Japanese? Would it be beneficial for someone to learn Chinese first and then Japanese?

The book you mentioned sounds interesting and I will definitely check it out.

[P Goldsbury]

Question for P. Goldsbury: Are the Chinese characters that have come into Japanese pronounced the same in Chinese as they are in Japanese?

No. Perhaps they were originally, but there are now significant differences, such that my Chinese students studying here can easily read the characters but cannot easily pronounce them. There is also the added factor of ON-yomi and Kun-yomi. When the Japanese began to use Chinese characters to write, they matched them with the Japanese that they already spoke. So there are usually two different ways of reading the character. Thus the Ai of aikido is kun; the ON reading is GOU.

Would it be beneficial for someone to learn Chinese first and then Japanese?

I doubt it. An entire language is rather more than the writing system. I would like to be able to read the characters in Chinese, but learning the entire language would be a major challenge.

[Shinken]

No. There are around 50,000 Chinese characters that have become part of the Japanese writing system, but most Japanese (in my experience) tell me that they know no more than around 5,000 to 10,000. There is a similar situation with English. The big Oxford English Dictionary records about 500,000 words, but I doubt whether all these are known by the average native speaker of English.

The average educated native-English speaking adult knows about 150,000 words. However, for a non-native speaker to get conversational fluency, it takes about 5,000. Academic proficiency also requires about 150,000.

Hope that helps.