bjj judo jujitsu

**Texan** · 06-24-2007, 10:35

I am just curious, does bbj include the same stand up throws that judo ,does it cover the full spectrum of throws that judo and jujitsu has? Are there akido like movements.
What is the real difference in bbj, why is it taughted as so superior to Japanese jujitsu.
All I ever see of it is the ground game.

**Dale Lackey** · 06-24-2007, 10:55

I'm sure a moderator will tell you that this is covered somewhere else in multiple threads. BJJ's focus is on the ground and teach mostly takedowns, but depending of the school they will teach some throws but not as many as judo. Their reputation is built on a little bit of hype and having the best technique on the ground. It all depends on what you want.

**shutterspeed** · 06-24-2007, 11:59

My school may different than other BJJ schools. However, in Gracie jiu-jitsu schools, if I'm not mistaken, a student must know all of the self-defense curriculum before advancing to purple belt. The self-defense portion consists of a lot of stand up work that seems Judo-oriented.

Also, my school sprinkles in what seems like Judo-type drills during regular class.

If I seem vague in my Judo references, that's because I'm not an actual judoka. And the instructors don't exactly make it a point of referring to moves by actual judo terminology.

**Sorros** · 06-24-2007, 14:24

Originally Posted by Dale Lackey

I'm sure a moderator will tell you that this is covered somewhere else in multiple threads.

Sorry haven't been on the forums for a few years.
I'll be sure and read the archives next time before posting another question.

**Mikey Triangles** · 06-25-2007, 23:11

BJJ usually doesn't cover as many throws as Judo, and it definitely doesn't cover them as thoroughly, but the ground game of BJJ, though it may look the same, is far more advanced then Judo or JJJ. It's not so much the techniques (Judo, and JJJ have most of the same ones), but more the way they're trained and the ludicrous number of transitions, set-ups, and combinations

**sooner_sadiq** · 06-26-2007, 01:01

When I trained in bjj our school system didnt really cover any takedowns or throws "officially". However the fact that my school had three collegiate wrestlers, multiple all staters, and various state placers, we covered the takedown portion.

**Koshu** · 06-26-2007, 01:54

Originally Posted by MerKaBa

. . . the ground game of BJJ, though it may look the same, is far more advanced then Judo or JJJ. . . .

I don't necessarily agree. The ground "game" is different from one art to the other -- competition vs. non-sports applications -- and therefore there are a large number of ground techniques utilized in traditional jujutsu that you don't typically see in modern judo nor in BJJ and vice versa.

**Soke Skip** · 06-26-2007, 09:09

Sometimes I think some of you should get out of a set thinking.

when I started learning judo back in late 1967, it was the old style of judo.It had ground work, lots of it, it had sweeps, lots of it, it had throws, looots of it. My JJJ had striking, wrists binds, kicks and weapons, it was a family Ju-jutsu. As most modern do arts were from a JJJ, I did not have to go to several schools, It was all in the system that I was learning.
As in regards to grappling, I had done a little wreasling in college and had a
little knowledge. A couple of instructors that would vist us, I came to learn a lot from them. Every thing that I learn from them is what everyone thinks is new today, it is not, just remembered.
Oh by the way the two teachers are still teaching. Who? JUDO GENE LEBELL
and HAYWARD NISHIOKA.

**Sorros** · 08-05-2007, 18:34

So basically BJJ is just like pre WWII Judo with many more drills and variations.

**Webmaster** · 08-05-2007, 19:23

Originally Posted by Sorros

So basically BJJ is just like pre WWII Judo with many more drills and variations.

That's silly. BJJ is NOT like pre-WWII Judo. Pre-WWII Judo was far more like traditional Jujutsu and the newaza emphasis (like found in BJJ) was probably less than we see today in Judo. Newaza is more the result of the modern sport emphasis in Judo rather than the older combative emphasis of Pre-WWII Judo.

**Archimedes** · 08-06-2007, 23:48

Originally Posted by Webmaster

Pre-WWII Judo was far more like traditional Jujutsu and the newaza emphasis (like found in BJJ) was probably less than we see today in Judo.

Would KOSEN Judo be considered an exception to your generalization?

**wildwills** · 08-07-2007, 06:08

Originally Posted by Archimedes

Would KOSEN Judo be considered an exception to your generalization?

Oh boy!.....here we go again...

**Webmaster** · 08-07-2007, 06:22

Originally Posted by Archimedes

Would KOSEN Judo be considered an exception to your generalization?

Kosen Judo is not really a separate type of Judo from Kodokan Judo, but that which was taught to school children. There is so much bogus information out there about Kosen Judo (like it's origin being with Fusen Ryu Jujutsu

) that it is hard to get to the reality of what it is.

Kosen Judo is nothing more than Kodokan Judo taught to school children with an emphasis on newaza. This BTW has been discussed here in great detail in the past. The main idea was more a matter of safety, ease in which to teach large classes of children and to provide a competitive venue. As those children got older, then continued to practice the way they were taught, so that's why there are a few dojo that still teach Kosen Judo. Note that competition is one of the reasons for it's development, and as such, one of the reasons for emphasis on newaza (just like the modern emphasis on competition I previously mentioned).

**Jeff C.** · 08-07-2007, 06:47

Robert, thanks for setting the record straight yet again. BJJ will gain more respectability as this nonsense is cleared up.

Jeff Cook

**STORMCROW34** · 08-07-2007, 07:20

Originally Posted by Texan

I am just curious, does bbj include the same stand up throws that judo ,does it cover the full spectrum of throws that judo and jujitsu has?

Here is an old clip that one of the moderators posted in another thread. It shows self defense portions of BJJ from the 50's. To me, it looks ALOT like Judo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxS017Z1stg

**Archimedes** · 08-08-2007, 02:50

Originally Posted by Webmaster

Kosen Judo is nothing more than Kodokan Judo. . .with an emphasis on newaza.

Right. So there was a subset of pre-WWII Judo "with a newaza emphasis like found in BJJ."

**Webmaster** · 08-08-2007, 05:20

Originally Posted by Archimedes

Right. So there was a subset of pre-WWII Judo "with a newaza emphasis like found in BJJ."

I noticed that you left out the important part of my quote...

Kosen Judo is nothing more than Kodokan Judo taught to school children with an emphasis on newaza.

Think of it as a type of Judo taught within the school system that was a little different than regular Judo much like the wrestling in our schools are different than Freestyle or Greco-Roman. It's still wrestling, but with a different rule set and emphasis.

That does not mean that Judo (Kosen or otherwise) was more like traditional Jujutsu because it did newaza. Newaza as we know it today in Judo or BJJ was unknown within the traditional (Koryu) ryuha of Jujutsu as it was not practical within the context of the battlefield where warriors were engaged in a tangle of swords, knives and spears. Going to the ground meant that you were going to die very shortly after hitting the ground. When Kano created a sporting component to Judo, and decided to include newaza, he had nothing to draw from with regard to the Koryu systems of Jujutsu, so he invented it himself or took what he needed from Western and other forms of wrestling. BJJ can claim the credit for taking the level of sophistication of newaza to a whole new level.

George, rather than just the clever one-liners, why don't you go ahead and give me a counter-argument if you have drank the cool-aid and believe otherwise.

**Jeff C.** · 08-08-2007, 06:36

I would like to know who is serving all of this tainted Kool-Aid.

Jeff Cook

**Erik** · 08-08-2007, 11:30

I know this topic has been done to death but still, this is an internet forum and folks new to the topic can stroll in at any time and ask it all over again.

It's interesting to me to read about all the different ways BJJ is being taught. In my old club all we did was groundfighting. There were no takedowns, no throws, no self-defense - none.

I should qualify that - a day or two before a tourney we shot a few double-legs.

Obviously, Mike is having a different experience. Same art but apparently a pretty striking difference in curriculum (please forgive the "striking" pun....)

Also, in my current Judo club we seem to be doing about 80% standing and 20% groundwork, maybe less. Almost no ukemi practice (unfortunately). This is my second Judo club (I moved a few years ago).

In the first one it was about 30% ukemi (you'd think we were training to be stuntmen), 60% groundfighting, and 10% throws. When we did randori from standing it was almost always double-leg takedowns and sprawls or guard that got the action down to the mat. Some of us grumbled that this was not Judo but how do you tell that to the son of an Olympic judoka who was brought home from the hospital in a baby-size gi when he was born?

I can see how even people who have been in both the BJJ and Judo games can still want to ask this question again and again. There seems to be an incredible amount of variety out there. I keep learning new things every time I read a thread like this.

Someone pass the Kool-aid.