bjj judo jujitsu

[Webmaster]

That takes in a lot of territory...Is the problem in a nutshell that some parties are trying to fastball non-Kano influences into BJJ through Maeda?

Actually, that would be a pretty good way to put it, but I would also add non-Judo influences with other systems of Jujutsu, particularly Fusen Ryu Jujutsu.

BTW, if you have not seen it in another thread in this forum (one of my other posts), here is what Fusen Ryu Jujutsu looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEFwYpXFxQA

[breeze]

Hey guys, I was interested in this thread so I started to read, and read and read. You guys are like an encyclopedia. Robert, Mert, George and Jeff, how do you remember all that stuff? I knew less than nothing about BJJ, that is until now. You guys must REALLY love this art, I'm humbled! Just one thing though, I watched the video clip Robert provided and I have to say that being tossed about on a hard wood floor doesn't look like fun.

[Erik]

... being tossed about on a hard wood floor doesn't look like fun.

No kidding. Those guys have awesome ukemi.

Probably never worried about falling off their bikes, either.

[Jeff C.]

Hey guys, I was interested in this thread so I started to read, and read and read. You guys are like an encyclopedia. Robert, Mert, George and Jeff, how do you remember all that stuff? I knew less than nothing about BJJ, that is until now. You guys must REALLY love this art, I'm humbled! Just one thing though, I watched the video clip Robert provided and I have to say that being tossed about on a hard wood floor doesn't look like fun.

John, thanks for the kind words, but don't be humbled by me, but rather by the other guys you mentioned. Those fellas have a vastly superior library than what I have.

All of this stuff is really pretty simple. The truth is simple and streamlined. Some of the outrageous rumors and misinformation is rather technical and complicated, however.

Jeff Cook

[Jeff C.]

That takes in a lot of territory...Is the problem in a nutshell that some parties are trying to fastball non-Kano influences into BJJ through Maeda?

George, what Robert said above. It is also important to note that the books I have read that are written by the Gracies and their associates definitely describe Dr. Kano's importance to the formulation of BJJ, and the brilliance of his training strategies (namely, randori). I have not read any Gracie putting out any misinformation (but I have not read everything written by every Gracie and high-ranked associate either).

Jeff Cook

[starkjudo]

BTW, if you have not seen it in another thread in this forum (one of my other posts), here is what Fusen Ryu Jujutsu looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEFwYpXFxQA

That was an awesme video. It's great to see the similiarities and differences from what we do. I see some of our jujitsu and judo in there, definitely.

[Koshu]

Hey guys, I was interested in this thread so I started to read, and read and read. You guys are like an encyclopedia. Robert, Mert, George and Jeff, how do you remember all that stuff? I knew less than nothing about BJJ, that is until now. You guys must REALLY love this art, I'm humbled! Just one thing though, I watched the video clip Robert provided and I have to say that being tossed about on a hard wood floor doesn't look like fun.

Nah, I don't know a whole lot. Hakkoryu Jujutsu is the only art I've studied, and I'm a relative newbie to the martial arts compared to the others you've given credit to. I pride myself on being a superlative and very dedicated student, both on the mat and off it, and keep a training notebook/journal as the primary component of my "library."

As for ukemi on hard surfaces, it's important to practice that since the bad streets aren't paved with mats!

[Archimedes]

but I would also add non-Judo influences with other systems of Jujutsu, particularly Fusen Ryu Jujutsu.

So what is the deal with Fusen Ryu Jujutsu? I had read before from what appeared to be a reliable source that there had been a couple of challenge matches between the Kodokan and Fusen Ryu ca. 1900-1905, and that Fusen Ryu won by taking the fight to the ground.

Is that simply not true?

[Mikey Triangles]

Nah, I don't know a whole lot. Hakkoryu Jujutsu is the only art I've studied, and I'm a relative newbie to the martial arts compared to the others you've given credit to. I pride myself on being a superlative and very dedicated student, both on the mat and off it, and keep a training notebook/journal as the primary component of my "library."

As for ukemi on hard surfaces, it's important to practice that since the bad streets aren't paved with mats!

I only get attacked on soft grass in comfortable weather

[Dale Lackey]

http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html

One source, not sure of how reliable.

[Koshu]

I only get attacked on soft grass in comfortable weather

Hehe, funny you should say that . . . Sometimes during the warmer months, we'll go to a local park after nightfall and practice multiple-attacker drills: basically a hand-to-hand version of a Hogan's Alley with living targets/attackers hiding behind bushes, dumpsters, etc. None of it is scripted, and students get to feel what it's like to be on the giving as well as receiving end of resistive training in a "real" low-light environment. Of course ------ that "real" environment sometimes comes complete with deposits left by the neighborhood canines. Needless to say, we suggest bringing a change of clothes during those days.

[Webmaster]

So what is the deal with Fusen Ryu Jujutsu? I had read before from what appeared to be a reliable source that there had been a couple of challenge matches between the Kodokan and Fusen Ryu ca. 1900-1905, and that Fusen Ryu won by taking the fight to the ground.

Is that simply not true?

I have read that as well, and I am somewhat dubious of part of the "story" that surrounds it. It is said that the Fusen Ryu trashed the Kodokan and so Kano decided to include newaza in the Judo curriculum. However, there is one minor problem with this...

The Katame-no-kata (the newaza kata) was formulated by Kano between 1884 and 1887 and per my research, the challenge matches between the Kodokan and the various Jujutsu ryu began in 1914. Even if the 1914 date is wrong and the 1900-1905 dates are correct, then the Katame-no-kata was developed twenty years before the "supposed" incorporation of newaza as a result of the Fusen Ryu win over the Kodokan.

Two other places you might want to check out is:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2268

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15631

The first thread is a long and detailed discussion of Fusen Ryu. The second is about newaza in Judo. The third post of that thread makes some valid conclusions.

I think the bottom line is that maybe the Fusen Ryu had an influence, and maybe it didn't. However, that might be more likely that members of that ryu became members of the Kodokan and had some influence on Judo's newaza development. The dates with the creation of Katame-no-kata and the challenge matches however tend to lend that newaza was already a part of Kodokan Judo before those matches.

One thing that I have gotten out of my research over the years is that the nature of what was called "newaza" was very different in the Koryu jujutsu ryuha than what we associate with newaza today. It was not really a matter of "wrestling" around on the ground, but rather was used as a follow-up to a throw where you quickly dispatched (usually with a weapon) the opponent who managed to survive being thrown. Restraint techniques, used to hold a person in place while you either pulled a weapon to finish or "held the opponent for the authorities" were present, but the nature of them would have been with the opponent on the ground and the other person in a 'half-kneeing' position so they can see what was going on around them.

[Jeff C.]

One thing that I have gotten out of my research over the years is that the nature of what was called "newaza" was very different in the Koryu jujutsu ryuha than what we associate with newaza today. It was not really a matter of "wrestling" around on the ground, but rather was used as a follow-up to a throw where you quickly dispatched (usually with a weapon) the opponent who managed to survive being thrown. Restraint techniques, used to hold a person in place while you either pulled a weapon to finish or "held the opponent for the authorities" were present, but the nature of them would have been with the opponent on the ground and the other person in a 'half-kneeing' position so they can see what was going on around them.

Kinda like my uki gatame example from earlier in the thread.

We were working techniques exactly like that in class last night. I had a really good judoka join us for class for the first time. His throws were of course beautiful, but the entry for a throw in classical ju-jitsu can be somewhat different than judo. Getting off the line of attack, ma-ai, intercepting an attack and then throwing WITHOUT using the clothing - these he adapted to with some practice. It was mostly a matter of changing his mindset.

After the throw, we worked various finishes - strikes to the face, armlocks from a standing/kneeling position (without looking at your opponent but rather searching and scanning the surrounding area), but most importantly, if you are going to hold your opponent to the ground, how to get him face-down, which is a MUCH safer and easier position to hold him down from a one-knee mobile position.

This is one of the things I wish Judo would have incorporated in their scoring -giving points for holding down your opponent with him face down, with the holder in a mobile position more reminiscent of JJJ.

Jeff Cook

[Webmaster]

Ditto that best ippon judo I have seen in a vid clip out there in a while.

Ah, it's Jujutsu Chris, not Judo.

[Jeff C.]

That was an awesme video. It's great to see the similiarities and differences from what we do. I see some of our jujitsu and judo in there, definitely.

That was a quite interesting demonstration of classical ju-jitsu. Very clean and precise kata. I would LOVE to see the same techniques demo'd by these experts against non-classical and more realistic attack motions. Does anyone have any links to modern applications? Do Fusen exponents engage in randori, and if so, I would be greatly interested in videos of that as well.

Jeff Cook

[Koshu]

. . . One thing that I have gotten out of my research over the years is that the nature of what was called "newaza" was very different in the Koryu jujutsu ryuha than what we associate with newaza today. It was not really a matter of "wrestling" around on the ground, but rather was used as a follow-up to a throw where you quickly dispatched (usually with a weapon) the opponent who managed to survive being thrown. Restraint techniques, used to hold a person in place while you either pulled a weapon to finish or "held the opponent for the authorities" were present, but the nature of them would have been with the opponent on the ground and the other person in a 'half-kneeing' position so they can see what was going on around them.

Kinda like my uki gatame example from earlier in the thread. . . .
After the throw, we worked various finishes - strikes to the face, armlocks from a standing/kneeling position (without looking at your opponent but rather searching and scanning the surrounding area), but most importantly, if you are going to hold your opponent to the ground, how to get him face-down, which is a MUCH safer and easier position to hold him down from a one-knee mobile position.

This is one of the things I wish Judo would have incorporated in their scoring -giving points for holding down your opponent with him face down, with the holder in a mobile position more reminiscent of JJJ.

Jeff --- It seems that if Kano intended judo to be "modern" and not brutally anachronistic (a la jujutsu), then perhaps the finishes associated with lethal military applications (e.g. pins allowing for throat slitting or decapitation, helmet crushing, stabbing into gaps in armor [somen didn't protect the eyes -- ouch!]) were largely thrown out on purpose over time. Perhaps Robert, et al who've researched this in depth can provide additional clarification.

--------------------

Yeah, going beyond the heyday of koryu in practical (battlefield) applications . . . it seems that by the late Edo period and into the Meiji period, when samurai and imperial soldiers on foot largely abandoned head-to-toe armor, there still wasn't a lot of interest in soiling their snazzy kimono or other battle-dress by rolling around on the ground. Going beyond the Meiji period, the kihon waza of the Japanese gendai jujutsu ryu/ha which I study and to which I've been exposed utilize zero finishes in which both tori and uke are on the ground (the 10% cross-over with BJJ I mentioned earlier largely comes from the ubiquitous techniques such as the uki-gatame involving a kneeling / half-kneeling tori, and/or henka of kihon-waza in which the tori opts to utilize a kneeling / half-kneeling pin/finish).

Here's a vidcap of another "classical jujutsu" ground finish, courtesy of Irie Yasuhiro, soke of KoKoDo Jujutsu:



This example clearly shows the weapon-based roots of the finish (i.e. shuto in lieu of shoto). Yasuhiro Sensei, prior to setting his eyes on the uke, scanned for would-be other attackers (as Jeff C. mentioned above). Even as he sets for the coup de grace, his eye level remains at low-ready vs. straight down at the uke so that his peripheral vision remains an asset (component of zanshin, one could say).

[Archimedes]

http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html

One source, not sure of how reliable.

I spotted at least one problem--it says that Maeda was a Kosen judoka. Kosen tournaments didn't begin until 1914, and Maeda had left Japan about a decade earlier to begin his world travels.

[Archimedes]

One thing that I have gotten out of my research over the years is that the nature of what was called "newaza" was very different in the Koryu jujutsu ryuha than what we associate with newaza today. It was not really a matter of "wrestling" around on the ground, but rather was used as a follow-up to a throw where you quickly dispatched (usually with a weapon) the opponent who managed to survive being thrown.

It would appear that the same would hold true of the Katame-no-kata--if a throw didn't do the trick, you'd quickly follow up with an armlock, choke, or hold-down.

One thing I came across in accounts of the Fusen Ryu newaza supposedly utilized against the Kodokan was that it was entered into by "sitting down"--whatever that might mean. Some have suggested that it might have been a kind of proto "guard jumping" that might have taken the Kodakan participants by surprise in spite of their already having the Katame-no-kata.

Thanks for posting the informative links.

[Koshu]

. . . One thing I came across in accounts of the Fusen Ryu newaza supposedly utilized against the Kodokan was that it was entered into by "sitting down"--whatever that might mean. . . .

Interesting . . . . . When "sitting down" traditional Japanese style (i.e. seiza), one knee goes down, then the other. A lot of what we've described above could be described as sitting or half-sitting on the uke (not that this interpretation is necessarily what the "accounts" you described definitively intended).

. . . Thanks for posting the informative links.

Yeah, thanks Robert-san. Very interesting stuff. Now I'm better prepared to deal with the ubiquitous "why doesn't your jujutsu look like the jiu-jitsu in the UFC" question!

[Ellis Amdur]

Here is a relevant quotes from Kurosu Haruji (deceased), Kodokan 8th dan and menkyo kaiden in one line of Araki-ryu.

Although there were people who had transmitted the school throughout the Meiji and Taisho eras, by the Showa era it had become almost completely buried, along with other koryu, under the shadow of Kodokan judo.

Why? Competitive opportunities. As has already been written, jujutsu ryu were often primarily weapon's practice with a strong component of grappling at close range, usually with weapons. However, most dojos already had an unarmed component of practice in sumo, done informally in the dojo rather than in an actual dohyo (sumo practice ring). This was naturally blended with the techniques of the dojo's jujutsu. So, by the late 1800's, hundreds of years since most of the weaponry were used, a lot of guys started working on integration of their jujutsu waza (arm locks, chokes, pins, etc.) into stand-up wrestling/sumo. Jujutsu was usually a non-elite ryu, practiced in rural areas. Read very poor areas. Young men, after harvesting was over, would take to the road and go from dojo to dojo, requesting a "lesson" - (challenge). (BTW - pre-kendo functioned the same way - read life story of Takeda Sokaku in Meiji, or Doc Warner, the famous one-legged kendoka in the 1930's in Japan). Few dojo used tatami (pre-plastic cover days, the woven mats would be too expensive). The teacher would select a student to take the challenge. Usually, atemi were forbidden, as were vital point strikes (eyes, throat, groin). They started in a sumo-like clash, and you tried to dump your opponent, and maybe lock them out. It was fair to try to throw him where the nail was sticking up on one of the boards, or out into the garden on one of the rocks. (Hence, the visitor always requests a "tour of your beautiful dojo" to see if he could pick up environmental hazards). If he won, he took on the next strongest guy - running the line. If he lost ignominiously, he was kicked out onto the road. If he lost with some class, the teacher, often a bonesetter, would set any injuries, and he'd be able to stay some weeks, recuperating and/or practicing (remember - poor? This was a way that young guys got fed outside of the farming months). If he ran the line, he either fought the teacher or the teacher honored him by asking him to stay and teach awhile. Note that - you could teach those of another ryu, which means either fine points of technique, or more likely, components of randori. It was, btw, dangerous to fight the teacher, because if you busted him up, the students might gang up on you, conceivably beating you into a pulp.
This was the substrate on which Kano built. His innovations, then, were appreciated by a vast majority of koryu teachers, because he provided a relatively safe way for competitive testing between ryu. So most jujutsu ryu allied themselves with the Kodokan.
Consider, however, a young guy. Learn kata? PArticularly about stylized weaponry? Or do more randori practice. So a vast majority of jujutsu ryu just got absorbed into the Kodokan as the young guys were interested in the fun stuff.
Is today any different? How many young judoka care a bit about the judo kata except when exams come up? How many BJJ guys want to practice the "self-defense" stuff instead of more rolling?