bjj judo jujitsu

[Mekugi]

While I agree with this, not only in Budo but in daily life, I have to play the Devil's advocate now that we have your ear (muhahaha)..

I am also the first to say, take what you can from everybody, SOmbo, judo, Bjj, freestyle, whatever. Hell, that is what Kano did.

Again, I think it all comes down to training more and talking less, and for God's sake quit looking over your shoulder at the other fella and focus on your own practice.

So in the spirit of the Socratic Method:

How can you beg, borrow and steal from others if you are just focusing on what you are doing?

Remember, I am intentionally being an a$$, which seems to come easy to me.

[TonyU]

So in the spirit of the Socratic Method:

How can you beg, borrow and steal from others if you are just focusing on what you are doing?

Remember, I am intentionally being an a$$, which seems to come easy to me.

In defense of Mr. Fields I interpret what he means as a way that detracts one own training, worrying so much what the other person is doing negatively.
Doing something like we did this past weekend of sharing knowledge and see what other M Artists was a good thing, done positvely.
I've done that may times and when done correctly can you an insight into ones own training.

[Koshu]

Well, I agree as well Tony. It looks like the BudoSeek! gathering in Canada was a blast, and what you said about gaining insight within one's own training by experiencing the training of others is right on.

Now, regarding incorporating multiple arts and systems . . . . . Based on his post, I'm inclined to think that by now Aaron has largely done his gleaning in 10-plus years of training, and that perhaps this discussion is old-hat to him at this point.

Aaron --- Nonetheless, given your amount of experience and knowledge of various arts, I'd be interested to hear your takes on sorting out the wheat from the chaff concerning koryu, judo and BJJ ne-waza.

Seems most of us participating in this thread diligently teach as well as train, and having accurate historical context for what we do is a good thing! (Prior to participating in this thread and a related thread mentioned earlier, I largely chalked up the differences between the ground techniques we do and those done in Kosen judo and BJJ to our lineage of traditional jujutsu not being one of the primary influences on Kodokan judo -- the whole debate about Shiro Saigo's fantabulous "yama-arashi" notwithstanding. )

[Archimedes]

Aaron --- Nonetheless, given your amount of experience and knowledge of various arts, I'd be interested to hear your takes on sorting out the wheat from the chaff concerning koryu, judo and BJJ ne-waza.

Me too. Simply practicing one's art won't shed light on these questions; talking with knowledgeable people will.

Seems most of us participating in this thread diligently teach as well as train, and having accurate historical context for what we do is a good thing!

I'm just a student, not a teacher, but I want to place what I study within an accurate historical context as well.

[Aaron T Fields]

Tony is following the meaning of my post and for this conversation I appreciate the “devil’s advocate.” “Not looking over your shoulder and borrowing from others” a mindset in practice. It really isn’t about what BJJ, Sombo, or Judo does or doesn’t do. It is about what the guy across from you does. If he does something better, learn it. The body is not infinite it is finite in the ways to gain mechanical advantage.

I believe the folks that go on and on about the differences in their practices because they want easy answers and bite-sized formula for skill acquisition, without the hard work and active participation that it takes for real development. {Yes that is my Eastern Block approach to this sport showing through.} In truth, this thread is about the same sport that has had separate lines develop based off respective context and rule-sets.

Maybe in general terms we can paint with broad-brush strokes, but I have practiced in a variety of places in the world, with numerous world champions in their specific sports. One common denominator of these players has been the viewpoint that grappling is grappling and that the fusion of specialties is a no-brainer.

Let me be blunt and cut to the chase. Selling the differences between the grappling sports is a great position for someone who is trying to sell something. I am practicing, not buying or selling. Anyone who is not a work in progress and has every answer to every question, likely has a bridge to sell as well.

I have practiced with judo guys who were world-class on the ground and BJJ guys who were world-class takedown guys. Talking in generalities is always dangerous, in my time I have fought too many guys who didn’t fit the cookie cutter molds to put stock in any of it. I take each fighter as an individual based off what they present me.

I cannot tell you how many BJJ guys have come into our gym and are dumbfounded that our ne-waza is as developed as their ground-game. Or how many judo men scratch their heads when they find themselves on their backs.

A funny point I will mention, nearly to a man every one of those guys is new to the mat. {See my previous post for that definition of new guy.} Senior guys from the above mentioned backgrounds never make these assumptions and it ends up being like kids trading marbles, all giggly and smiles. It is my hope that someday soon when the grappling fad wears off, that as a community we can quit yammering and get back to the old days, when we were so exited to see someone who was a grappler that just got down to practice.


Mert, in answer to your question, I’ll give you a bit of my background. I am 36 years old and have a bit over 18 or so years of time on the mat. I have, and continue to have, fantastic practice partners and coaches, all of who I am in debt to for anything I am as a grappler. My background is one of judo, jujutsu, sombo, and a smattering of various folk wrestling styles, mostly Mongol. My specialty has always been ne-waza and transitions from standing to ground. I also have experience in a koryu.

My take is this, that the body only twists and turns so many ways, therefore differences are going to be based off context, clothing, and rules.

I think there is several posts that talk about specific differences often, but not always, found in ne-waza. Instead of re-stating those posts, maybe I can just give a broad overview on what I personally have gleaned from the respective grappling sports I participate in.

Koryu newaza is one of gaining advantage to employ some sort of weapon, even a rock. The lack of “do” in the mindset has been what I have gotten the most from. The technical level itself is not as developed as gendai grappling methods, but one wouldn’t expect it to be. As a pure grappler, the atemi I have learned in the koryu has been good for me. (Not only form a practical application standpoint, but also one of historical context for many of the things found in the gendai practice, which are remnants of their past.)

BJJ has given me patience in ne-waza, and a good bottom game. Most high-level BJJ guys will tell you the top is the best spot to be. Yet, because of BJJ rules their dojime or guard, is highly developed. In addition, because there are no pins, their game has a patience that is fantastic for developing smooth transitions. Also I really like the lack of silly gripping rules found in BJJ that we find being put in place every other year.

Judo is a funny beast, as pre-Olympic judo, or at least what I have been exposed to, had a much more balanced approach between standing and ground. (So not to start the every-two-month "Kosen judo, or European judo etc etc" conversation again, let me state judo is judo. Nevertheless it is like ice cream, it is all ice cream but there are many flavors.) Several of my judo coaches were, or are, newaza monsters. What judo has given me is a heavy top position coupled with the ability to pin and make a guy suffer. I have used this to great success setting up locks and chokes as the man underneath pays for every second I am on top. Early on I was told by an old bear of a player, that I needed to spend more time developing my pins, in order to increase the success rate on my submissions, that I so loved. [In other words the BJJ saying, position before submission, same thing minus the pin.) He was right.

In addition Judo gave me confidence in my ability to take a man down with a “smaller” takedown and transitions into a punishing ground game.

Finally, judo teaches commitment. The ideology behind the ippon rules, (it can be argued that minor points interfere,) was total commitment to victory. Judo should not a game of defense, but one of attacking until the opponent falls. To loose trying not to loose is cowardice. To loose attempting to win is honest effort. The concept of countering is garbage, every movement is an attack and is the basis for the success of a final technique. Reaction is always slower than action.

Sombo taught me to not mimic but understand movement. It opened my eyes to what is often considered “unorthodox” angles of attack and totally rid me of misconceptions and dogma regarding the use of power in properly executed technique. I also became more comfortable with body grips and the development of my body-to-body movement, lifts, and leg locks. In addition it was while learning leg locks that I finally understood the use of my hip for everything. It also made me rugged and gave me a love for vodka. Most important though, was it was practicing sombo in Mongolia where I really learned how to practice.

I hope this answers your question, but again this is what I have found for me, take it for whatever it is worth.

Best Reagrds,
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

[KIT]

Notwithstanding that this is about nth billionth time this topic has been discussed, usually with virtually the same posts, and even the same posters involved;

What Aaron just wrote is pretty much all that needs to be said on the topic. It should be tacked on to every thread of this sort that is posted, and the thread summarily closed.

Hybrid grapplers are "old school," and the wave of the future.

[Koshu]

Kit --- Why close it? There are some interesting angles discussed here that have been underserved by most of the other JJJ-vs.-judo-vs.-BJJ and origin-of-BJJ-related threads. For example, as a police officer, I'd be very interested in your take concerning how you use the gamut of ne-waza discussed here (from traditional jujutsu techniques in which tori remains upright to purely on the ground). I think it's interesting that there's a flavor of lack of appreciation for traditional jujutsu ne-waza sprinkled all over the internet (as suggested in the original post), yet how do you effectively prone cuff someone?? Certainly not in most cases from a triangle choke!

And besides, if we close this thread now, I won't have a chance to properly thank Aaron for taking the time to thoughtfully respond to my previous post!

[KIT]

Kit --- Why close it?

That was somewhat tongue in cheek, pointing out the excellence and thoroughness of Aaron's response.

For example, as a police officer, I'd be very interested in your take concerning how you use the gamut of ne-waza discussed here (from traditional jujutsu techniques in which tori remains upright to purely on the ground). I think it's interesting that there's a flavor of lack of appreciation for traditional jujutsu ne-waza sprinkled all over the internet (as suggested in the original post),

That's actually what I am getting at. Search here and E-Budo and you will find this has been discussed ad nauseum. Again, frequently with the same participants. Not trying to be a smart ***, so please don't read that tone into this, its only that I have personally been through it so many times I am tired of trying to educate people who seem to not want to believe what falls outside of their pre-determined world view.

That flavor of lack of appreciation isn't from anyone with any real, quality experience, in BJJ or otherwise, which I think Aaron's post says.

The people with quality experience from legit lineages (yep, including BJJ) will recognize, and frequently teach, stuff that is identical or very nearly so to koryu newaza for self defense or police work, even within the competitive context. Sometimes with no adaptation, sometimes with surprisingly little. Some is good, some is bad. Just like koryu.

Likewise, I have seen techniques in different koryu (in person and at a remove (video, etc.)) that is identical to "sport" BJJ or Judo newaza. Yes, some of it was for "sport" koryu (musha shugyo and taryu jiai type events) which were quite widespread.

In short, you are better off doing both. The one (combatively oriented, koryu style, pins-face-down and takes-weapons-into-account) fills in the (at times gaping) holes of the other (competitively oriented grappling practice, whether intended for sportive competition or not).

Check out the cops (and the security professional) on this board - virtually all of them do BJJ, and virtually all of them have experience in Judo or koryu or both.

To quote an unknown detective: "In this business, we call that a clue."

[Koshu]

Kit --- Very much appreciate the clarifications! Your and Aaron's post make for a nice package of follow-ups. Thanks!

Being a traditional jujutsuka, I liked what Aaron said about the practical mindset and utilization of atemi that traditional jujutsuka bring to ne-waza being significant variables, and I think the summaries you and Aaron provided of your experiences across the board with the grappling arts provide a good reality check for those of us that specialize on one side of the spectrum or the other. Most of the sport grapplers who've found their way into our dojo, while mostly sincere in their search for more grappling knowledge (our flavor of ne-waza or otherwise), simply aren't the enlightened ones with over 10 years on the mat. They don't come through the door with the universal view of all this that you, Aaron and others have, don't realize that there are gaps in their game from a practical standpoint that you mentioned, and don't realize that there's probably a Japanese variant of every technique with a Brazilian name (allowing for henka/variations in traditional jujutsu and judo).

Anyway, I think your and Aaron's posts adequately address and rebut the notion in the original post that the burden of proof concerning modern relevance as a grappling art conventionally lies with traditional jujutsu (i.e. you provided context for the validity of each art mentioned in the original post).

However, I want to restate that I believe there's traditional jujutsu out there that's as sophisticated in its approach to ne-waza as BJJ (not just in their respective contexts, but in general -- common techniques notwithstanding): the utilization of atemi- and kansetsu-waza further adding to the possibilities. Unfortunately, most sport grapplers I've encountered, even if they do appreciate the differences in ne-waza offered by traditional jujutsu, don't seem to get the value of working in and from seiza to develop the traditional jujutsu techniques (for example, both koryu and gendai Japanese jujutsu have a lot of ude-osae stuff that's really effective in this regard). In this sense, I think that some of the disrespect occurs because of a given student's bias toward a certain training methodology (no worries, I won't rehash the resistive randori vs. paired ritual kata debate ).

[Mekugi]

Kit...great to see you back on.

In my opinion, this thread has not been done to death elsewhere. It has the same start as many others, but went a new direction. So, one should not be frustrated when you see the same start, only be frustrated when you see the same content

Just as in practice, one comes back to the basics at one point or another. This conversation, if you all have not noticed, has blossomed into something better than which previously found here and elsewhere, and some of the participants have indeed changed their views. Socratic Method is stellar for sorting out opinion and seeking answers, and verily here, it is no different. Again, I cannot stress enough how coming back to the basics is important. It all started with the same line ending on a different path. The conversation really has gone to higher level IMHO

Myself, I was off playing around in the sun and training when his thread was brought to my attention and I was asked to post on it. Whether I did a good job or not, whether I was accurate or flawed is wholly my fault, but I thought I had covered some things that were not touched before and I believed were interesting. In other words, I did not seek out this thread; someone sought me out to post on it. I did. Who cares if the same people are participating? We are using our minds and communicating and that is what is important.

I have to stress that generalizing Koryu Bujutsu is probably not the best thing to do. Especially when we are talking about maybe one or two. While many which have commonalities, the difference really lay in strategic mindsets. That may be saying that the kata may not always have the best combatives- but a way of thinking and under what pretense.

I would venture to say that most "Koryu Jujutsu" did not develop during the warring era of Japan. In a feeble attempt not to wash everything out as the same color (don't wash your colors with whites) I would say that what we havenow developed in the Edo era. Therefore, you have several schools of Jujutsu that are not weapon oriented- many of them dating to the late 17th and through the enirety of the 18th century. Nevertheless, to say and stand by this idea fervently is indeed a wash over of the truth, because many did develop in that era that use weapons in grappling. Then you have those that had a little too much contact with Judo or modern martial arts and swayed their mindset in that direction (I believe Ellis put this in excellent words earlier). As it goes, it is not a good idea to generalize these things unless we are talking specifics.

Lest us not leave out seizing and controlling people, hojojutsu is an entire grappling art many pay little attention to in the current era. Something I feel been left to the wayside. Why? Dunno, maybe it is not cool anymore. I enjoy it, even without a zipper mask and a pair of leather pants.

For example, there is a famous school of the short stick here in Japan. Most will not realize there is a form Jujutsu attached to it. Why? Because it uses weapons. There is also a part that contains restraining that wholly relies on "jujutsu" pins and locking, but most of that has fell to the wayside because it seems to be a weapon art. The name is not important, what is important as the reason that it is not seen as Jujutsu, while others are because one has to get past the couple years of training to see into it.

Discussion and training are good, in fact equally good for the person as a whole. In training, one should not be concerned with their hubris…just have fun, continue to have fun and take it in. Generalizing koryu bujuts is hard to do, because there are so many schools, there is likely to be an exception somewhere-, and there are aspects that are not popular and left out of most conversation.

As a little reminder, I have been studying budo for 22 years now (23 come this September) and I train five days a week and often train on my own time at home everyday before and after work. So, the comments about not training, I hope, are not directed at me (but alas, who were they directed at? Neither here nor there, but a nice let-know.) My wife, who is continually P'O'ed that I am gone so much or freaking out the neighbors running around the yard with a spear, sword or other weapon, can certainly testify that I need to train less.

[KIT]

Don't....get....sucked....in....

Thanks guys, but it really is the same thread all over again.

[Mekugi]

Don't....get....sucked....in....

Thanks guys, but it really is the same thread all over again.

Intolerable a$$ mode /on:

How can you make it different or better then, personally? Why do you think people keep repeating the same stuff over and over again?

You knew it was coming: Why did you bother to post if you felt it was of no value to anyone, including yourself (come on, you saw that one a mile away...)

When you meet new students, do you ever say to them "It's just the same stuff all over again" without giving them a chance to learn?

Intolerable a$$ mode /off.

[Mekugi]

Tony is following the meaning of my post and for this conversation I appreciate the “devil’s advocate.” “Not looking over your shoulder and borrowing from others” a mindset in practice. It really isn’t about what BJJ, Sombo, or Judo does or doesn’t do. It is about what the guy across from you does. If he does something better, learn it. The body is not infinite it is finite in the ways to gain mechanical advantage.

So really, it's better to look over your shoulder at the other fella and not just focus on what you are doing? Mainl, finding a better way to do something, negating and throwing away the rest?

That being said, having studied some Koryu Jujutsu (whichin'??) how much of the newaza have you seen that corresponded to what you are/were doing?

Also, can having a little experience in something make you a better judge of what you are doing now?

It's three in the morning, I have a big embutaikai tomorrow and I am literally almost completely exhausted...so bear with me if the tone of this post seems off. I think it sounds okay...but I may come off wrong.

[Mekugi]

In defense of Mr. Fields I interpret what he means as a way that detracts one own training, worrying so much what the other person is doing negatively.
Doing something like we did this past weekend of sharing knowledge and see what other M Artists was a good thing, done positvely.
I've done that may times and when done correctly can you an insight into ones own training.

Ok agreed...but then again by paying attention to what another is doing "negatively" just really trying finding a kink in the armor? Isn't this especially true in competition?

For example, Dr. Kano took a long hard look at what his opponent was doing in the first school of Jujutsu he studied- Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. He was looking over his shoulder at Kanekichi Fukushima, who was a great deal bigger and would stomp Dr. Kano's hind end regularily in randori. Dr. Kano was burning to find a way to defeat him, so at the advice of a friend he consulted a man working in his University cafeteria who had Sumo experience. The man taught him some basic Sumo, but when Dr. Kano met Fukushima again, he found that it just would not work and recieved the usual pounding. According to legend, Dr. Kano went to a library in Yushima neighborhood of the Bunkyo ward. He scoured the stacks and found a book on Greco-Roman wrestling in an attempt to seek out anything that would help him. In the back of the book, he found a picture of a fireman's carry, that seemed to work on bigger people. So after months of being stomped into the ground by a big, sweaty, cuss named Fukushima- the young Dr. Kano used a wrestling move to pick him up on his shoulders and sling him to the mat. Not only was he learning, sweating and training, he was looking over his shoulder at his opponent to find a way to beat him. He found something that would work against him by observing and studying.

I learned it originally from an educational Japanese cartoon on Animax and later on in a book by a guy named Watson.

[Aaron T Fields]

Russ,

I feel as though my points are clear. As I have nothing else to offer in this conversation I will leave it here and leave it to those inclined to split lexicon to do so. I am not intersted in flogging a dead horse, nor arguing or explore points, that in truth, don't make much difference. Tony seems to understand the spirit in which "not looking over your shoulder..." was intended. Witty ripostes aside, my meaning is clear.

I am happy to continue a conversation with anyone unclear on my points or with specific questions, but only directly. In addition, if anyone is ever in my neck of the woods I am alwasy happy to have a good practice and show the differences, as in truth talk is just talk no matter how informed or good it sounds, the mat is the proof in the pudding.

Practice more, talk less.

Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

[Mekugi]

Okay, somehow I feel that you think I am challenging you somehow. I'm not, and I am sorry if you feel that way. Perhaps you aren't used to debate or this type of thing, but don't take it the wrong way. It's all good! It's about thinking and communicating.

I feel as though my points are clear. As I have nothing else to offer in this conversation I will leave it here and leave it to those inclined to split lexicon to do so. I am not intersted in flogging a dead horse, nor arguing or explore points, that in truth, don't make much difference. Tony seems to understand the spirit in which "not looking over your shoulder..." was intended. Witty ripostes aside, my meaning is clear.

Umm...okay. So I didn't understand. Sorry...only asking. It seemed weird, but I guess if everyone else gets it, then I can just be left out. So you won't answer any of my other questions? Why not?

I am happy to continue a conversation with anyone unclear on my points or with specific questions, but only directly.

Okay...so write me an email if it makes you feel more comfortable. I've got nothing to hide, either way is fine man! Do you want me to paste my posts in an email?

In addition, if anyone is ever in my neck of the woods I am alwasy happy to have a good practice and show the differences, as in truth talk is just talk no matter how informed or good it sounds, the mat is the proof in the pudding.

Differences in what? Proof in what? I'll come and train with you when I'm up there, but I am not sure what you are getting at. Are you having a conversation related to this thread, or is there something I am not seeing here? Do you feel attacked in this thread? If so, please don't feel that way.

If you are up for it, I'll bring some of my toys and we can play.

Practice more, talk less.

Umm okay...if I practice more than 15 hours a week (what I do now), my wife will be REALLY pissed. Not to mention that my kids will wonder where their father has gone.

How many hours do you put in? 5 days a week?
You don't know me man, so you really should not put that in your posts regarding me! Who are you talking to?

I am not sure you are reading what I am saying properly, or you are assuming because I am literate and write often, somehow I don't train. Well, that's not the case. I could say the same to you. It's rather strange and reminds of of the Hatsumi mantra : "shut up and train."


Anyway,

Peace, I'm off to Kumano Hongu for a 10 hour training session and a demonstration on Sunday in 90 degree heat.

Train smarter, not harder. Scholar and gentleman...

[Jeff C.]

I'm a little slow and simple-minded, so bear with me here folks. But first, the thread is not going to be closed just quite yet.

ALL forms of ju-jitsu place combative principles very high on the priority list. Ju-jitsu people, gendai/sport or koryu, are concerned with combat and the various forms it can take - remember, ALL FORMS OF COMBAT HAVE RULES, including on the battlefield.

So what makes styles different from each other? Not necessarily the techniques, although there are some differences. What makes them different is the level of importance placed upon the various principles and strategies.

Another commonality: ju-jitsu practitioners are not concerned with where, from who, or how they acquire a deeper understanding of anything that can help them on the battlefield. All sources of knowledge are fair-game, without prejudice. Learning from the success and mistakes of others and ourselves enhances our evolution.

We have to take notice - i.e. "worry" - about how the "bad guy" trains, for obvious reasons. I do not understand the concept of focusing on my own training to the exclusion of how others (who I may meet on the battlefield) train. That is too self-limiting, and besides, our training design is greatly affected by what we expect an enemy may do.

Jeff Cook

[Jeff C.]

Russ,

I feel as though my points are clear. As I have nothing else to offer in this conversation I will leave it here and leave it to those inclined to split lexicon to do so. I am not intersted in flogging a dead horse, nor arguing or explore points, that in truth, don't make much difference. Tony seems to understand the spirit in which "not looking over your shoulder..." was intended. Witty ripostes aside, my meaning is clear.

I am happy to continue a conversation with anyone unclear on my points or with specific questions, but only directly. In addition, if anyone is ever in my neck of the woods I am alwasy happy to have a good practice and show the differences, as in truth talk is just talk no matter how informed or good it sounds, the mat is the proof in the pudding.

Practice more, talk less.

Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

Aaron, let us know when you are ready to come off of that lofty mountain you are enthroned upon, and discuss this stuff with us mere simpletons.

By the way, I did get a lot out of your post; good stuff, and you obviously are a quality instructor with deep experience. But let me remind you that this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a LECTURE forum.

Jeff Cook

[Aaron T Fields]

Jeff,

I am the last one to lecture, as there are folks with way more information than I have. I just have nothing else to offer in regards to this conversation, IE I have said my piece. As to any lofty mountain, I promise you that is not the case. I am scared of heights, unless it involves a burning building and a ladder or two.

But, I dislike being taken and out of context and wanted to ensure that some of my comments were not being moved away from their meaning.

If my post came across as patronizing I apologize, that was not my intent.

Russ,

The "train more, talk less" is a saying that I use all the time, not intended directly at you, just a general comment. (One that I openly took from a former coach.) As to your comments challenging me, no I don't feel that way at all. I did feel as though my point was being missed. As to not going on more about this topic, I just dont' feel like I have anything else to add. My reason for prefering direct contact is becasue I feel like the exchange of information is more clear, (ie less likley to lead to weird misunderstandings,) and more benefical for the folks involved. The reason to join in for a practice is the whole point of my post. It seems you took my comments out of the context I intended. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Finally as to how much I practice, 2-3hours four to fives times a week.

Aaron Fields

[Mekugi]

But, I dislike being taken and out of context and wanted to ensure that some of my comments were not being moved that way their meaning.

I wasn't attempting to re-contextualize anything you said, at least not intentionally. I was only attempting to ask questions based on what you said previously, because I didn't get it or wanted it to be clearer. If you think you were clear enough, that is fine....but I am only attempting to get at the meaining. While I understood taken different aspects from different martial arts- finding a better way to make a wheel, as it were. I am still unclear about the "looking over the shoulder" idea. With regards to my other questions, they are merely inquisitive and nothing more.

Don't take me the wrong way in this thread; I am no great shakes at competative groundwork nor am I trying to play the Koryu Snob (gawd I hate that). There are plenty of folks in Oregon that can testify to this. I was part of a "team" for a while back home, perhaps less a part of the team and more of a towel boy with an uwagi. However, I feel that I learned a lot from that experience and from that I found what I truly wanted to do. Now, looking back I wonder what experience I might have missed compared to what I am doing now. Yet, if anyone wants to test me with a spear...I am more than happy to oblidge with at least a little confidence (this happens here more often than not, and I find that I am having fewer "holes" lately).