believing in ki

**sheb** · 07-02-2007, 18:10

Is it necessary to believe in the existence of "ki" to do Shorinji Kempo or other ma's? What do you think is the reason for making "kiai" - to have muscle tension at the right time or also to focus on "ki"? I have read a report about acupuncture last time ... and there on said, that perhaps the mind does rule the body and not otherwise.

**Nina** · 07-02-2007, 18:37

I think you don`t need to believe in something in order that it can exist.I think that `ki` is interpreted differently by different people and it`s importance is seen different... I don`t understand your last sentence in relationship to ki, and I don´t think that mind only rules the body, but that there is an dependance of both.

**Ewok** · 07-03-2007, 04:48

I interpret ki as air (Japanese for air is kuuki), kiai forcing proper control of ki (air) in the lungs.

**ezzthetic** · 07-03-2007, 05:41

Ki means many things. But in many ways it is a term for the undefinable. Trying to define it is not necessarily the way to approach it. If we use set theory, the set A (Ki) might have a subset of B (i.e. air), but most likely it is a union of A and C (something completely different but including B (air)).

Belief or disbelief is unnecessary. You do not have enough evidence to form real conviction. If you force belief it is not true belief or even faith. You might convince yourself that certain aspects of ki are definable, but never the whole concept. There will always remain aspects of it that are ungraspable... and that is how it should be! We do not always have to grasp. If you relax and go about your training, aspects of ki will come to you through experience and feeling in the body.

None of this means you have to be tolerant of "Ki blasts" and "No punch KOs" any more than you want to, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater or as I prefer to say the snake oil with the snake oil salesman. Just because some charlatan tries to sell you something based on false properties does not mean that the something (snake oil) has no usable ones. Its real properties might just be more subtle.

If there is doubt it is because you are reaching too far. Uncertainty rises from wandering from your current level of training. Only practice and experience (as well as some level-of-progression appropriate contemplation) can erase doubt and build faith in larger truth.

For me, Kiai arouses the spirit of vitality in the body and can startle the opponent(s). This does not mean that my mind is closed to any further properties of kiai, but neither does it mean that I'm grasping for them. Do not constantly define and grasp ahead of your practice. This is like worrying about being struck by a meteor every time you leave the house!

PS This was not directed to anyone in particular, despite my sermon-like tone. I just took my queue from the thread title.

**sheb** · 07-03-2007, 08:12

to explain my point a little bit:

As far as I know several (traditional) martial arts deal with "ki" as a kind of "life-energy" which can and should be controlled. This doesn't mean that something like "ki-balls"/whatever are possible/real ...
... and the report I mentioned said that probably a lot of effects of acupuncture, but also of western medicine, are placebo effects ... just by the mind(attitude) of the patients. Following this one said, that possibly the mind influences the body more than one thought up to now.

So my question is, whether you believe in something like "ki/chi" as a kind of more or less mystic "life-energy" and whether you think, that it's necessary to believe in this to master your martial art (at least in order to understand the basic concept/origins of your ma).

For example a Shaolin monk who beats an iron stick on his head: Is it just body hardening or is it more than only physical?

**Nina** · 07-04-2007, 05:05

Originally Posted by sheb

So my question is, whether you believe in something like "ki/chi" as a kind of more or less mystic "life-energy" and whether you think, that it's necessary to believe in this to master your martial art (at least in order to understand the basic concept/origins of your ma).

If one don`t believe in something one probably won`t waste time with it and therefore probably won`t make the same experiences as someone who concentrate on it...Do `ki-exercises`have the feature to increase ki or to mobilise something that is already there?

Originally Posted by sheb

For example a Shaolin monk who beats an iron stick on his head: Is it just body hardening or is it more than only physical?

Or show?

**sheb** · 07-04-2007, 05:40

Originally Posted by Nina

If one don`t believe in something one probably won`t waste time with it and therefore probably won`t make the same experiences as someone who concentrate on it...

Right, if one doesn't believe in "ki", one will say that it isn't necessary ... so you have to understand both questions as one. But perhaps one can see the "ki-thing" as a help to develop/mystic circumscription for a very real thing (whatever it could be).

Regarding the Shaolin monks I think, that on the one hand it's perhaps often only a "show" (in the offical shows), but on the other hand I have seen (in reports) that they do exercises to harden their body and "ki-exercises".

**Nina** · 07-04-2007, 05:44

Originally Posted by sheb

...they do exercises to harden their body and "ki-exercises".

Does anyone know some good ki-exercises?

**sheb** · 07-04-2007, 05:51

Originally Posted by Nina

Does anyone know some good ki-exercises?

I can give you a book about this topic (up to now I didn't read it).

... and I can imagine very good what some "BudoSeekers" think now (regarding this topic)

.

**Nina** · 07-04-2007, 05:57

Originally Posted by sheb

I can give you a book about this topic (up to now I didn't read it).

Thanks, so we can practice it this evening...

Originally Posted by sheb

... and I can imagine very good what some "BudoSeekers" think now (regarding this topic)

.

**sheb** · 07-04-2007, 06:09

Originally Posted by Nina

Thanks, so we can practice it this evening...

... probably you will blow me off with your ki-balls, because of your longer ma-practise and thereby probably better ki-control/level

.

**Nina** · 07-04-2007, 06:17

Originally Posted by sheb

... probably you will blow me off with your ki-balls, because of your longer ma-practise and thereby probably better ki-control/level

.

Now you can`t complain that someone finds this topic dubious!!!

**sheb** · 07-04-2007, 06:22

Originally Posted by Nina

Now you can`t complain that someone finds this topic dubious!!!

I know

... so back to the (seriously meant) topic!!!

**David Dunn** · 07-05-2007, 14:19

Originally Posted by Ewok

I interpret ki as air (Japanese for air is kuuki), kiai forcing proper control of ki (air) in the lungs.

I used to share an office with a Japanese theoretical physicist. I asked him about 'ki', as in the meaning in everyday language (kuuki, genki, tenki, etc), and he said that it just means something along the lines of "something that is tangible, but that you cannot see." That covers electricity, magnetism, weather, the mood or demeanour of someone and so on.

It makes a lot more sense that some of the supernatural cobblers you sometimes hear

**sheb** · 07-05-2007, 14:56

Originally Posted by David Dunn

that it just means something along the lines of "something that is tangible, but that you cannot see." That covers electricity, magnetism, weather, the mood or demeanour of someone and

Ok, but what means ki related to martial arts?

**Kari Mäki-Kuutti** · 07-06-2007, 02:14

Originally Posted by sheb

Ok, but what means ki related to martial arts?

When the Sensei does it to you it is tangible but you do not have time to see it???

**HeatherMac** · 07-16-2007, 17:55

Originally Posted by Nina

I think you don`t need to believe in something in order that it can exist.I think that `ki` is interpreted differently by different people and it`s importance is seen different... I don`t understand your last sentence in relationship to ki, and I don´t think that mind only rules the body, but that there is an dependance of both.

I agree. Whether you're able to do something or not I think is not the focus of belief, but rather the ability to either do it, or don't do it. It's a simple choice, and when all parts are coordinated, even still it doesn't mean it will work. It's the choice to let it work, or not.