When would you call yourself "Master?"

[Eliz]

If I had a life I wouldn't be in here.
If it offends, then strike it. I know I was
pushing the envelope.

Peace.

No striking the [prior] statement. It stands.

For everyone else, the OP had an earnest question. Lets try to get this thread back on track.

OP:

I am still unclear on the criteria for referring to oneself as "Master ..." I know that it is different from style to style, school to school and person to person. What does it mean to you?

[Nyuck3x]

For the record, I apologize for the previous statement.

Calling ones self Master, would be like talking about yourself in the third person.

Example:
Q. Ray, would you like a drink?
A. The Great Ray would love a drink.

It is just not right. IMHO, part of the Martial arts is about humility.
How can you be humble if you require people to call you Master?
How can you be humble if you refer to yourself as Master?

It is different if someone refers to you as one out of respect.
It's like holding a gun to your head and demanding respect.
Would you respect me without the gun?

Peace

[Eliz]

Calling ones self Master, would be like talking about yourself in the third person.

Example:
Q. Ray, would you like a drink?
A. The Great Ray would love a drink.

Now THAT is funny.

It is different if someone refers to you as one out of respect.
It's like holding a gun to your head and demanding respect.
Would you respect me without the gun?

Peace

Good point!

Edit: Calling Catness. You might want to check back in on your thread as a lot of feedback to your question has been submitted.

[Mr Doug]

What Is A Master?

Perhaps a person might ask who isnt a Master? I have always understood the term "Master", in the Art of TKD, as any instructor who has achieved the rank of 5th and 6th Dan. When the level reaches 7th and above, then the Master is given the title of Grand Master.

Most Masters that I have had the honor of knowing, will be the first ones who will never use that term, concerning themselves. Of the Grand Masters, who were all Korean, none would claim the title. In fact, they will probably be the first ones to make the statement: Why do you refer to me as a Master? I am not a Master. It reminds me of the scripture verse when the young man approached Jesus and said: "Good Master! Jesus replied: "Why do you call me good? Only God in heaven is good."

I believe the title of Master is someone who doesnt proclaim who they are, but someone who will be the first to say, who they arent. Their flawless technique that was achieved many years ago, may be somewhat slower or perhaps the kicks may not be as high, but the basics are still there to a "mastered" level that will always be part of the physical awareness. Their first black belt will probably not be embroidered with beautiful writing or stripes, but very faded, tattered and torn. That belt will probably not be worn, or displayed for everyone to see, but in a quiet and peaceful place.
Isn't it interesting that the traditional hyungs (patterns or forms) created, upon reaching the level of Dan, most of the kicks are lower than the kicks of the Gup (below black belt) series.

Many years ago, I asked my first Korean instructor, why were the kicks lower in the Black Belt level? He replied that because when a person achieves Black Belt, and begins the climb the ladder of Dan rank, the age factor comes into bearing. Even the best technique of a Black Belt, will begin to diminish, with the element of time.

So, in closing, who is a Master? Is it someone who displays their high level of martial art ability, or is it someone who goes beyond that, and displays a quality of life dedicated to the care and welfare of those who enter that person's life? Could it be similar to the question who is a Christian? Is it someone who proclaims "Christian" as an identity, or someone who pursues to live a "Christ-like" existance dedicated to God and their neighbor, and being a blessing in the lives of others?

Do we understand the title of Master as a level of perfection? As in the scriptures, we are called by Jesus to " be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect." Or, could it be that Jesus was telling others to "perfect" their lives in love and caring as God is perfected.

Pefection in areas of our lives, including martial arts, is an impossible level to attain. But, shouldn't we "work unceasingly" to perfect it?

Gods peace to you all.

Mr. Doug

[TonyU]

Edit: Calling Catness. You might want to check back in on your thread as a lot of feedback to your question has been submitted.

I find that interesting. A member posts a question, gets answered multiple times but the OP doesn't return to view the answers.
I understand that members have a life outside the internet but I would think that if a question is asked it's because they're looking for a legitimate answer and would at least stop in to check what was posted.
I find that somewhat insulting. Members are trying to help, but it appears the the help wasn't really needed.
All well, to each their own.

[Eliz]

I find that interesting. A member posts a question, gets answered multiple times but the OP doesn't return to view the answers.
I understand that members have a life outside the internet but I would think that if a question is asked it's because they're looking for a legitimate answer and would at least stop in to check what was posted.
I find that somewhat insulting. Members are trying to help, but it appears the the help wasn't really needed.
All well, to each their own.

Correct you are!

She is a neighbor although we do not know each other. We have been in contact via PM and she is juggling quite a bit with this question. I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Catness, it is time to maintain your outside sources and begin to think on some of the advice you have been given. We are starting to feel as though we are advising empty space.

[loki]

What Is A Master?
In fact, they will probably be the first ones to make the statement: Why do you refer to me as a Master? I am not a Master.

Doug,

I think you hit on a point of confusion in terms of "Master" in connotation and denotation.

In TKD, the translation from Korean to English is accepted within the system as "Master" as either a translation or a 'transliteration' but I think we still have to realize that there is a difference in what that word means in each culture.

Eastern view of a "Master" is very much tied to the reverence in the East for learning and education. It is an educational recognition of an individuals living example of personal excellence in his chosen 'art' or trade, and recognition that, due to their living example, they can be a source of inspiration to others.

Now, to be honest, I have run into sincere and false humility from both Western and Eastern practitioners who have paid lip service to the "I am not a master" comment....then they conduct themselves as if they deserve to be treated like a little king. Actions speak louder than words - East or West. So, I don't get hung up on the words of "I am [or "am not"] a Master" because the proof will be in the conduct and performance.

In the Western connotation of "Master" we have many different ways of defining the term. Unfortunately, because of a very "anti-aristocracy" attitude that is drilled into us through our public education and the slavery/Civil War issues, we still carry a rank/authority connotation of the word at a subconscious level. So, "Master" almost immediately brings up ideas or images of someone who does or thinks they do have the power to rule over us.

The term has many usages.

"Master Craftsman" simply means someone who has been practicing a trade for a certain period of time and/or attained a certain level of expertise. In the professional teaching world a "Master Teacher" usually has at least 10 years of working professional experience. Thus the original meanin go "TENu-URE" or 10 years.

"Master" as an aristocratic or authority term is a whole 'nother matter.

So, to wrap up, If someone has the goods to call themselves a 'Master' like a craftsman AND can back it up on the floor [in instructional skill and personal performance mind you] AND conducts himself as a decent human being....no problem.

It is those who use titles like "Master/Grandmaster" but assumed the title/ranks in a way that is less than ethical, can't back it up in conduct or personal skill....well, they are a joke, to be honest.

[Jonathan Randall]

Doug,

I think you hit on a point of confusion in terms of "Master" in connotation and denotation.

In TKD, the translation from Korean to English is accepted within the system as "Master" as either a translation or a 'transliteration' but I think we still have to realize that there is a difference in what that word means in each culture.

Eastern view of a "Master" is very much tied to the reverence in the East for learning and education. It is an educational recognition of an individuals living example of personal excellence in his chosen 'art' or trade, and recognition that, due to their living example, they can be a source of inspiration to others.

Well said. Good post.

Again, like I and others have also written in this thread, it is a semantics problem. In the right context, the term "master" itself doesn't have to be thrown out - just the bums who misuse it.

[Andrewh423]

Though its use seems common in Korean and Chinese arts, 'Master' in traditional Japanese and Okinawan arts tends to be a red flag. 'Grandmaster' simply screams 'fraud'.

I somewhat agree (about the Japanese in any case). The largest problem is that English simply does not have adequate equivalents to the Japanese. For example; Sensei, which is commonly translated as master, simply means 'one who has gone before'. In Japan, this title commonly used in a variety of manors. Doctors, dentists, elders, and teachers of almost anything are referred to as XXXX-sensei. This suffix is similar to our prefixes for Mr., Ms., Mrs., Dr.; or suffixes such as PHD, MD, etc

If one is referred to as more than 'sensei', you may hear a title such as O-sensei, or Shihan. These poorly translate to English and are simply a more honorific title to show respect for someone who has contributed a great deal to an art.

However, if in English someone is referring to themselves as master, I may have a little concern. To the Japanese, ‘sensei’ does have a certain weight to it, but it is very common. I work with a Japanese guy who calls me sensei all the time because I am good at MS Office! This is how I’ve always understood it.

[Webmaster]

I somewhat agree (about the Japanese in any case). The largest problem is that English simply does not have adequate equivalents to the Japanese. For example; Sensei, which is commonly translated as master, simply means 'one who has gone before'. In Japan, this title commonly used in a variety of manors. Doctors, dentists, elders, and teachers of almost anything are referred to as XXXX-sensei.

You are preaching to the choir. I think that most members here are already aware of this and it's been discussed numerous times.

If one is referred to as more than 'sensei', you may hear a title such as O-sensei, or Shihan. These poorly translate to English and are simply a more honorific title to show respect for someone who has contributed a great deal to an art.

O-Sensei is not a title, but it was/is used to refer to Ueshiba Morihei in order to distinguish him from his son. However, it is not a title that he used or was officially awarded. It is what he is/was referred to by others.

On the other hand, Shihan is an actual title that roughly means "master instructor". It's use varies between arts and organizations. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shihan for a quick overview of the term.

[Andrewh423]

You are preaching to the choir. I think that most members here are already aware of this and it's been discussed numerous times.

O-Sensei is not a title, but it was/is used to refer to Ueshiba Morihei in order to distinguish him from his son. However, it is not a title that he used or was officially awarded. It is what he is/was referred to by others.

On the other hand, Shihan is an actual title that roughly means "master instructor". It's use varies between arts and organizations. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shihan for a quick overview of the term.

I figured this has been discussed before, but it seemed relevant to the discussion.

As far as Ueshiba-sensei, I knew that the....title?....started with him, but I have recently heard others use it for sensei they have a lot of respect for. Since it went uncorrected, I assumed it can be used with others. But it could be in just my little corner of the world (or the instructor was nice enough not to embarrass the student...maybe more likely?).

And for Shihan, I found a great (albeit lengthy) article about the use of sensei and shihan. http://www.aikiweb.com/language/goldsbury1.html , as the wikipedia article is rather simple and does not address the culture or complexity of the Japanese the their language.

[Webmaster]

As far as Ueshiba-sensei, I knew that the....title?....started with him, but I have recently heard others use it for sensei they have a lot of respect for. Since it went uncorrected, I assumed it can be used with others.

Or it just happily stroked his ego.

And for Shihan, I found a great (albeit lengthy) article about the use of sensei and shihan. http://www.aikiweb.com/language/goldsbury1.html , as the wikipedia article is rather simple and does not address the culture or complexity of the Japanese the their language.

I read the article many moons ago and it still puts me to sleep. Good article, but way too much information. Don't get wrapped around the fine print of the use of titles. Too many folks use too many silly-assed titles and the bottom line is that you should never refer to yourself as Sensei, Shihan, Master, Grand-Poobah, or whatever. These "titles" are for others to refer to you.

[Andrewh423]

Agreed. I am facinated with culture and language, so perhaps it's not important or interesting to others. As I am new to this site, I'm not sure what has been discussed...didn't mean to beat a dead horse. Cheers!

[Webmaster]

Agreed. I am facinated with culture and language, so perhaps it's not important or interesting to others.

I still find the culture and language interesting, but I have outgrown my Japanophile tendencies over the course of 35 years doing this stuff.

As I am new to this site, I'm not sure what has been discussed...didn't mean to beat a dead horse. Cheers!

Beat away, but don't be shy about using the search function to see what other topics have been discussed. Also, you'll find that with a lot of senior martial artists from a variety of arts here, we do tend to be pretty well informed.

Oh, and welcome aboard!

[Brandon Fisher]

I would not refer to myself as "Master" and I am actually offended when people introduce themselves as such. I had that happen to me at a tournament a while back, little did the guy know I was actually senior rank to him. When he competed he actually called his kata by the wrong name. It didn't leave a good impression on me at all. How do you ever truly master any martial art when there is so much to learn. Master means to me as someone who has perfected their art and perfection in the martial arts is rare if not impossible.

Just my .02

[Andrewh423]

I've had similar experiences. I'm never impressed when someone introduces themselves as Master. And rarely (if ever) have I seen any of these 'Masters' demonstrate something that impressed me (usually the opposite). I have met a few...socially ackward?...instructors who I did not expect much from, and then blew me away. But as a general rule I think anyone pushing a title is demanding it rather than deserving it.

[Andrewh423]

I should quickly note that it is not worth being offended over. People are what they are, and nobody is twisting my arm to go and study with Master-so-and-so. I just feel bad for Master-so-and-so's students.

[Brian Dugger]

I am still unclear on the criteria for referring to oneself as "Master ..." I know that it is different from style to style, school to school and person to person. What does it mean to you?

Well, it depends. If you wear black synthetic socks, tie your gi with lapel right over left, teach thirty (exaggerated) techniques in an hour and half and always have to refer to a technique compendium as "scrolls" theeennn you're a "Master".

[Webmaster]

Well, it depends. If you wear black synthetic socks, tie your gi with lapel right over left, teach thirty (exaggerated) techniques in an hour and half and always have to refer a technique compendium as "scrolls" theeennn you're a "Master".

Hmmm, someone that we know?

[Rasputin]

Hmmm, someone that we know?

Hey, I was just thinking that!