Koryu in the West

[David Craik]

It has been suggested that koryu training in the West could be only something of a shadow of actually training in Japan, even when taught by highly skilled teachers. That even if all of the techniques are the same, that the sensibilities and environment of the modern day Western world are so different that even when practiced in earnest the alien environment in which it is pursued causes a lot to be missing. Not just because you can't shoot down to the local Wal-Mart and pick up a pair of waraji, but because the very concepts incorporated into traditional Japanese arts - be they martial, flowers, or tea - are intrinsically Japanese and not usually part of Western thinking.

Granted, modern day Japan is also very different from the environment in which these arts were originally practiced. It was estimated, IIRC, that only about 1% of modern Japanese have even seen a koryu demonstrated. However, a teacher of Shodo having lunch with an Iaido sensei will have much to talk about; they will likely understand many of the same concepts as their arts flourished in the same environment. Things like shibumi, wabi, and sabi are evident in many things as they are ingrained in the Japanese psyche (though sometimes it seems increasing less so in an era of ugly ferro-concrete, Western clothing, and ridiculously dyed hair).

On the other side of the coin, we see that a number of koryu are tragically on their last legs in Japan. There are some that simply have no students due to lack of interest, and the head of the system may well pass on taking their expertise to the grave as modern youngsters - if they have any interest in things martial at all - are more interested in competitive pursuits like atarashii naginata, judo, or kendo than old ways that may be perceived as having lost their relevancy. So, it might be said that Westerners who don't share the culture of the Japanese - certainly not antiquated, Edo-period culture - may ironically be the greatest chance for the survival of arts which will be impossible to accurately reconstruct once they are gone. The number of Westerners looking to learn old Japanese arts are legion - though legitimate instructors in the West are few and far between. Even when you subtract the students who soon learn that the koryu aren't about to realize their Kenshin fantasies, you may still be left with people who are passionate and committed to the tradition and with passing it on for future generations.

So, it leaves us with the question of whether such a transplanted art is better off thriving in an alien locale, or simply dying out in a 'pure' state in the country of its birth. If it thrives elsewhere, will it still really be 'X'-ryu, missing the very things which make it a singular pursuit even among other martial arts? Is it better to keep what will possibly eventually be the 'bare bones' of an art alive - and arguably making the historical 'chain' of that art somehow weaker, or simply allow it to be regrettably relegated to a historical entry in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten?

Any thoughts?

[RA Miller]

David-
Since this is you There is a valid argument that koryu can't be transmitted in the west because of the vast cultural differences between the two societies.

But I think it is equally valid to say that it can't be transmitted by anyone who has never used it to fight for survival.

That's why i love it when Russ and I get together- same style, but he is studying it in it's birthplace and I am testing it in application. It makes it possible to fill a lot of holes.
Rory

[David Craik]

But I think it is equally valid to say that it can't be transmitted by anyone who has never used it to fight for survival.

That's an interesting thought, Rory, though I can't agree. There are of course many koryu which haven't been used 'for survival' in a long, long time. Ya just can't stroll down the street toting a katana like you used to. Nonetheless, there are many excellent teachers, and I think it would be safe to say that in general the heads of the various systems have a pretty good grasp of their traditions and quite capable of transmission, despite it not having been used 'for real' since before the Meiji period.

[RA Miller]

Let's try a re-phrase.

Someone raised in the culture will be aware of nuances and the importance of certain details that someone from another culture would miss.

Someone with experience in survival combat will be aware of nuances and the importance of certain details that someone without the experience will miss.

My instructor was fantastic and very careful to teach very well- but there are a handful of things that he knew in the kata that I learned to understand in the application.

Rory

[David Craik]

So you are saying that the loss of cultural nuance does no more harm to the transmission of a koryu than the fact that it is being transmitted by folk who have no combat experience in the art? I was having trouble trying to draw the connection.

This is an interesting point.

Then again, since koryu are already being taught by people who have never actually 'used' it (thinking of weapons arts mainly here), perhaps it further loses it's connection to heritage when also transmitted outside of it's home culture...

[RA Miller]

Yep. Both misses more than either one.

[Koshu]

David --- I have relatively limited exposure to koryu, but based on the quality of the exposure I've had, I feel confident in saying that there are Japanese teachers who have migrated to the west with comprehensive "knowledge" (borrowing Rory's earlier distinction between knowledge and understanding) of their respective ryu. I sincerely believe that among these expatriates there are those who have adapted to western culture and even adopted it to varying degrees, and have come to understand how to impart the key subtleties (both technical as well as cultural esoterica) to western students that make these arts more than just sets of kata.

It's safe to say that in several decades we'll likely not see thriving interpretations of koryu outside of their native soil in the same way that judo begat BJJ and baseball begat yakyu, since koryu don't have mass competitive appeal. Maybe the seitei-gata and/or other compendia of techniques will continue to be practiced for posterity long after the koryu from which the kata were derived have lost adequate transmission from one generation to the next.

Or in certain cases, maybe not! I think it's great that there are those like Rory and some of those with whom I've had the opportunity to train who bring feedback from practical use to the table. I can think of at least one Japanese sensei in the U.S. who has taken note of this, and openly encourages students to train with practical applications in mind. Who knows, at least for a generation or a few going forward, could this phase of koryu's dissemination allow certain arts, while maintaining their cultural underpinnings thanks to the ongoing presence of Japanese sensei, to actually regain their relevance as "martial" arts in which students can walk out on the streets, notwithstanding the evolution of the daisho from paired swords to iPhone + iPod, and "understand" the kata if and when needed?

Regardless, we're lucky that we're living in the time when a precious few intact koryu have come to the west relatively fresh from the source.

[David Craik]

It's safe to say that in several decades we'll likely not see thriving interpretations of koryu outside of their native soil in the same way that judo begat BJJ and baseball begat yakyu, since koryu don't have mass competitive appeal.

I think perhaps this is a good thing, as even though an 'interpretation' may be more applicable to modern combat effectiveness it may also render an art no longer koryu. And after all, the koryu were never designed for the masses anyway.

[Ramirez]

Good question and somewhat complicated and very far reaching. I'll have to read your first post in more detail and perhaps come up with a more comprehensive post.

For now though...

I can see how there might be nuances/details lost due to cultural differences or perhaps even language subtleties.

However as much as a Koryu is a athletic endeavour, I think that this can be transplanted no problem to other cultures, e.g. England exports the game of football (soccer) to other countries and is now being regularly beaten by South Americans, Balkans, and other Europeans.

Judo although not a koryu is now widely practiced and world and olympic champions are produced globally, although I guess it could be argued by exporting Judo that it was modified into something that is not completely Japanese anymore even in Japan as the global participation might have also altered Judo in Japan.

[CEB]

Part of the equation I always thought was that personal sense of cultural identity. I used to practice Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Shinto Muso Ryu. It was interesting a an educational extension of my Seitei Iai and Kendo studies. But it never gave me the goose goose bumps that I would experience when I held the calvary saber that Charles Boyd wore in battle or give me the feeling I could get from a basket hilt claymore like my ancestors used in battle.

I wonder how the Japanese view our practice of Koryu. A friend sent me a video clip of some Asians competing in a some Asian Highland Games. I first reaction was what the Hell do they think they are doing. But then again it isn’t any different than when I used to put on an uwagi and hakama and grab a bokuto and practice TachiUchi no Kurai.

[rgoad]

I know of a couple of people who are caring for a koryu and doing well in the eyes of the Japanese who know what they are doing. Toby Threadgill of this board comes to mind. The others that I know (I have never met Toby, but I hope to, someday) are generally low key so you would not generally know what they do.

The Japanese that seem to worry about it are like the Westerners who would squawk at Japanese in the Highland Games: they don't really know.

BTW, Ed, you look GREAT for 70.

[Koshu]

It's safe to say that in several decades we'll likely not see thriving interpretations of koryu outside of their native soil in the same way that judo begat BJJ and baseball begat yakyu, since koryu don't have mass competitive appeal.

I think perhaps this is a good thing, as even though an 'interpretation' may be more applicable to modern combat effectiveness it may also render an art no longer koryu. And after all, the koryu were never designed for the masses anyway.

David --- Any examples of how you see people (mis)interpreting koryu in the spirit of reviving the practical side of a given art?

For what it's worth, the approach we're taking is that the things that make a koryu modern combat effective are largely the same things that would've made it feudal combat effective; and it's important to practice with the objective of drawing out the inherent and timeless elements of tactics that still reside to various degrees in koryu syllabi, since attention to these details helps manifest subtle but key adjustments in the technique of a student that some would say are key to understanding vs. knowing a technique. Our MJER Japanese and American sensei remind us to always orient the sword, even during noto, so that all components (tsuka, mune, saya -- not just the parts that are designed to cut and stab) can be readily utilized against one or more opponents that may re-engage or appear, to constantly mind potential threats 360 degrees around one's self. This is valuable stuff for the modern soldier, law-enforcement officer or civilian, whether forced to engage threats open-handed, with an enemy close enough to grab your M4, when forced to deploy a baton, or while holding the daily paper.

So one day, the sensei from Japan, immediately after providing the above admonition, calls out an experienced student to demonstrate a standing solo kata. The student is sure in his mechanics, snapping the sword down to maximize the "whoosh" in kirioshi, snapping sharply into his chiburi -- most of the while with his eyes closed and his mind focused on being crisp and clean in his execution, the lesson just imparted completely missed (nod to Ed's Highland Games post).

Just because some of us are optimistic doesn't mean the path is easy. Unlike Toby, I'm a dilettante regarding koryu at this stage, so I'm not much use to the cause, as much as I appreciate it.

Anyway, hopefully Ellis Amdur wils find this thread because his approach to sustaining the koryu he studies is quite different than what's been posted above.

[CEB]

.....

BTW, Ed, you look GREAT for 70.

The anti-flea shampoo the vet gave me is working wonders.

[KIT]

Some thoughts by those in the know:

On the one hand;

http://www.koryu.com/library/dskoss1.html

http://www.koryu.com/library/dlowry4.html


A bit of in between, here, no?

http://www.koryu.com/koryu.html


On the other;

http://www.koryu.com/library/gbristol1.html

http://www.hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=11

[David Craik]

David --- Any examples of how you see people (mis)interpreting koryu in the spirit of reviving the practical side of a given art?

Mert, I actually was going to add to that post this morning but I ran out of time and had to get to work. I don't neccesarily see people misinterpreting - or even 'interpreting' koryu. My meaning was that if something like, say, Araki Ryu (just an example) became widespread then people are in time going to start changing it. Perhaps they feel that some of the throws in Judo would be more effective today than kogusoku designed to be used against an armored opponent. Perhaps if we dropped a little of the feudal-era trappings it would be more palatable to Western people and we could attract more students. Maybe if we added some kicks from Muay Thai to the repertoire or dropped some of the old tantojutsu used for suki in armor that noone wears anymore in favor of Filipino knife techniques it would be more effective. And maybe it would be. But what it would not be is Araki Ryu anymore. It would be like someone, however skilled, 'touching up' a Rembrandt painting to give it a more contemporary feel. Regardless of how good a job it is what they've done is destroyed an irreplaceable work. Perhaps I'm just an unabashed pessimist...but while I would like to believe that all Western dojo would have the care and dedication shown by folks like the Skosses, Ellis, Karl Friday, Toby, et. al. I fear this would not be the case.

The idea of making a koryu practical in the 21st century - while an interesting thing - is frankly a little alien of a concept for me. I've never really thought too much about practical application of the techniques today, possibly because I'm not a jujutsuka who would likely have the best chance of using what he has learned in a practical way. I don't envision how I could adapt kesa giri to level someone with a pool cue at the bar down the street. I view koryu as a living antique, and feel that if someone wants to learn techniques which are 'street'-effective today that there are other types of arts which would likely accomplish this far better and more quickly.

I agree that there are techniques and principles that are timeless - and have no doubt whatsoever that people - particularly gents like Rory and Ellis - could use ancient techniques to seriously kick some modern butt. And I do see that practicing with a mind toward practicality is in a way forging a connection to the men of the past that actually used these traditions for survival that arguably could not be duplicated by simply practicing their techniques by rote. But personally it isn't what interests me most with regard to these old arts, though I was taught to always practice with spirit and focus envisioning actual combat. Something you see lacking among some iaidoka at a tai kai, to be sure.

There are certainly Westerners that are taking exceptional care of the koryu. I've met and corresponded with quite a few of these great folks. As a matter of fact, it is a couple of these experts which actually first raised the question which forms the subject of this thread, although much more eloquently than I.

It was cultural disparity and alienation though, not combat effectiveness, that I was trying to get at with this thread. And I myself am rather of two minds...as Dave Lowry once said, there are koryu in such a dying state that if the roof on the demonstration hall collapsed, every single member of a centuries-old tradition could be wiped out...which in some cases is just that, a single elderly person. This is very sad to me.

Regardless, we're lucky that we're living in the time when a precious few intact koryu have come to the west relatively fresh from the source.

Absolutely.

[KIT]

David

Good discussion, and a topic that has been popping up over several forums recently...

Mert, I actually was going to add to that post this morning but I ran out of time and had to get to work. I don't neccesarily see people misinterpreting - or even 'interpreting' koryu. My meaning was that if something like, say, Araki Ryu (just an example) became widespread then people are in time going to start changing it. Perhaps they feel that some of the throws in Judo would be more effective today than kogusoku designed to be used against an armored opponent. Perhaps if we dropped a little of the feudal-era trappings it would be more palatable to Western people and we could attract more students. Maybe if we added some kicks from Muay Thai to the repertoire or dropped some of the old tantojutsu used for suki in armor that noone wears anymore in favor of Filipino knife techniques it would be more effective. And maybe it would be. But what it would not be is Araki Ryu anymore. It would be like someone, however skilled, 'touching up' a Rembrandt painting to give it a more contemporary feel. Regardless of how good a job it is what they've done is destroyed an irreplaceable work. Perhaps I'm just an unabashed pessimist...but while I would like to believe that all Western dojo would have the care and dedication shown by folks like the Skosses, Ellis, Karl Friday, Toby, et. al. I fear this would not be the case.

Here you have stated almost exactly what Ellis has done, and specifically with the Araki-ryu! I watched it first hand, and he has been very open about it publicly, and very recently.

Fpr example, read post #18 here:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...t=39411&page=2

Toby has specifically stated his teacher adapted his Shindo Yoshin-ryu to face boxing attacks because it was something his students might encounter on the street.

How about these from the Sosuishi-ryu (and since Rory has chimed in...)

From the hombu dojo website:

"Throughout its history, a decline in the popularity of Sosuishi-ryu has often posed a real threat to its survival. However, the inheritors have always prevented this by learning and incorporating other techniques and theories such as Ogasawara-ryu and Kyushin-ryu, so that the tradition remains alive and relevant, and that the technique of Sosuishi-ryu is continuously developed. Today, this responsiveness to alternative disciplines is still maintained by the current 16th Master, Manzo Shitama, ensuring that Sosuishi-ryu technique continues to evolve."

Link: http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~sekiryu/edouzyou.html


And from the headmaster Shitama Manzo:

"Sosuishi-ryu is true Bujutsu... it is not a sport and it is not just kata. It consists of realistic self- defense techniques .... ....and includes Ukemi (break falls); Atemi-waza (striking techniques); Kansetsu-waza (techniques of twisting and breaking of the joints); Nage-waza (throwing techniques); and, Kata (forms) that are unchanged for almost 350 years."

"My primary objective is to integrate Jujutsu into Judo. I want to teach real techniques. Judo is a sport. If you throw someone to the mat you get a point. This is not self- defense or real fighting. During my trip here to the United States, I have observed how Fink Sensei teaches real self-defense training without injury. I would like to initiate that type of training in Japan.
I believe Budo is very much alive today. We must teach etiquette as part of the principles of Budo. Students of Sosuishi-ryu Jujutsu must also demonstrate good character... in addition to their techniques. Essentially, if the student has a good heart, then his technique will also be good. However, our techniques must be slightly modified to adapt to our changing environment, as well as the weapons that we must defend from. The problem with many Dojo is that they teach attacks from 200 years ago. A sensei has the responsibility to teach current techniques so that his students will not be injured on the street."


Link to the Interview:

http://www.nyseibukan.com/SJJK/Interviw/interviw.htm

The idea of making a koryu practical in the 21st century - while an interesting thing - is frankly a little alien of a concept for me. I've never really thought too much about practical application of the techniques today...

I think you just encapsulated one of the key dichotomies of koryu today.

Most practitioners probably totally agree with you, and have the same frame of reference. I have even recently read a number of comments from "name" authors and highly respected senior practitioners with decades in Japan that seem to confirm they are of much the same mind as you are expressing here.

I think its a shame that many seniors seem to have closed that door. Rory will I am sure tell you that his koryu practice has in a very real sense saved his bacon. I can tell you that lessons gleaned in the limited time I practiced have come to the fore in real world situations where it has saved mine, the most serious of which did not involve any physical contact with the assailant.

We should not assume that others have the same frame of reference we do. We cannot speak for others, and I think we know from the writings of various koryu exponents offered on websites, forums, and in books that we cannot define all koryu by the standards of one, or even many, because somewhere there will be one that doesn't do things that way.

[KIT]

Wierd double post deleted!

[Koshu]

Mert, I actually was going to add to that post this morning but I ran out of time and had to get to work. . . .

Aren't you retired? Can't keep a good man down, I guess.

. . . I don't neccesarily see people misinterpreting - or even 'interpreting' koryu. My meaning was that if something like, say, Araki Ryu (just an example) became widespread then people are in time going to start changing it. Perhaps they feel that some of the throws in Judo would be more effective today than kogusoku designed to be used against an armored opponent. Perhaps if we dropped a little of the feudal-era trappings it would be more palatable to Western people and we could attract more students. Maybe if we added some kicks from Muay Thai to the repertoire or dropped some of the old tantojutsu used for suki in armor that noone wears anymore in favor of Filipino knife techniques it would be more effective. And maybe it would be. But what it would not be is Araki Ryu anymore. It would be like someone, however skilled, 'touching up' a Rembrandt painting to give it a more contemporary feel. Regardless of how good a job it is what they've done is destroyed an irreplaceable work. Perhaps I'm just an unabashed pessimist...but while I would like to believe that all Western dojo would have the care and dedication shown by folks like the Skosses, Ellis, Karl Friday, Toby, et. al. I fear this would not be the case. . . .

I found a take Ellis provided in a past thread concerning his Araki-ryu group's progressive interpretation and shepherding of that line of the ryu. He provides historical context for utilizing competitive grappling as a catalyst for evolving the art in this post and earlier in that thread. To what degree the Japanese headmasters sanction this group's approach, I don't know (Ellis is reportedly licensed to teach the art, so hopefully he can expound). Taking his comments into consideration, it appears that certain koryu embrace outside influences more than others. Perhaps koryu that are wholly or include jujutsu (such as Araki-ryu and Sosuishi-ryu as mentioned by Kit) would be better candidates for this than say an iaijutsu which has no current combat or legally acceptable self-defense application (unless some bad guy breaks into your dojo or into your home, and a sword is the most ready deterrent at hand). Anyway, I understand where you're coming from regarding feudal weapons curricula.

More later.

[RA Miller]

To clarify- I am NOT talking about using modern experiences to change the ryu.

Gi closes left over right. A native Japanese might have a cultural explanation that a westerner would miss. I know it's because if you do it the other way your weapon hangs up on it on the draw (M4 from the sling, not that different than a sword draw).

There is one technique in our kata that I love- its only purpose is to confuse witnesses. The reason was probably lost in the last generations of generally law abiding sensei- but it is clear to me, and wonderful.

The more actual experience I have the more impressed I am with the system and the less need I feel to change anything. The people who formulated Sosuishi were some brutal, efficient bastards.

Again, I wasn't talking about changing. Experience allows you to see and explain things that are easy to miss, just as the cultural immersion does. But different things than the cultural.

One other- a move from a Filipino form that makes no sense until you realize that blood squirts. Blood sometimes squirts and it is very slippery. Very easy to forget in training.

[KIT]

Gi closes left over right. A native Japanese might have a cultural explanation that a westerner would miss. I know it's because if you do it the other way your weapon hangs up on it on the draw (M4 from the sling, not that different than a sword draw). .

Not really sure I'm with you on that one, my friend, unless you are doing things way different from how I run an long gun.

I think there is the cultural explanation, but one that undoubtedly influenced how weapons were worn/deployed because of the cultural issue(s), or certain practical issues as you described with the spurting blood - its slippery!

Again, I wasn't talking about changing. Experience allows you to see and explain things that are easy to miss, just as the cultural immersion does.

Now here I am with you. The peril with changing without experience is that you might not really know what you are looking at - the real explanation for something may be lost in the mists of time, but would make perfect sense from the point of view of the warrior seeking practical application in that time and place.

The practical and cultural each inform the other to some extent. Many things practical *then and there* simply won't be now. Others adapt directly in terms of tactics, and still others teach strategic lessons, the physical movements are almost unimportant.

I think the practical experience we are talking about opens up other options that are, to use a much belabored phrase "hidden in plan sight." I'm not talking about the things our aiki- and internal power friends have been bandying about lately, but in terms of how you wear your kit, weapon deployment, how you maximize your opportunities and minimize your enemy's, when you would choose to do certain things, and other lessons. One of the most valuable lessons that Ellis imparted to me, and that others have echoed vis a vis kata is that while they are not "stories," but many of them very much are contextually driven, and taking the context out of it - or missing it altogether - kind of defeats the purpose.

The peril with lacking the practical experience is in not grasping the reality of the context that is being presented. The peril in lacking the cultural foundation is in not getting that certain things may be in there for didactic or cultural reasons that have no bearing on the technique, but are just "that's the way things are/were done" when teaching social juniors, when slamming your social seniors to the mat, etc. etc.

David and Mert make a good point about (armed) jujutsu being a different sort of animal than iai or naginata, the latter of which will have applications that are necessarily more in terms of overarching theory than directly practical utilization in this day and age.