New Member seeking Advice

[jeffa]

Hello All,

I'm a new poster so if this topic is in the wrong forum would an admin please move it to the appropriate one? I'll try to keep this short, but it might get a little long-winded...

Here's my situation....2 years ago I started training in a karate class that was held at a local church. The monthly dues at that time were $40 per month, which covered everything offered (weapons, grappling, "bonus classes" belt promotion fees, etc etc).
Six months after joining the dojo was relocated to a commercial building and the fees were increased to $70 per month. A few short months later the dojo was relocated to a larger commerical building and the fee structure was totally revamped. About this time my 9 year old son starting training as well. Needless to say, I was overjoyed. Training with my son, and watching him advance and become more cofident and self assured is something that I've enjoyed beyond words.
With the larger dojo, the new fee "menu" included a variety of memberships:
Basic $75 / month
Basic Plus $80 / month
BLACK BELT TRACK $95 / month (for those students are "really dedicated).
The different memberships include different training options being offered.

I'm currenlty a "basic plus" member, which allows me to attend three 1 hour core classes, along with a "bonus" class per week. It was my understanding that weapons classes were "bonus" classes, but last week when I inquired about attending a weapons class my Sensei informed me that I couldn't because I wasn't a "Black Belt Track" member.

Not wanting to cause a scene at the dojo I respectfully left without offereing any questions. Later that night I sent an email asking for clarification, and observed that as a business owner I was sure Sensei could understand my view as a customer, and asking for clarification in regards to the fee structure.

To make a long story short...Sensei posted a blog on the dojo website discussing the difference between a "customer" and a "student". To paraphrase...customers view training only as a "product" being offered, and students view training as a way of life.

I'm somewhat distraught at this. I realize that one has to be comitted to training, and I'd like to think that I have been for the last two and half years, but on the other hand, there has to be line at some point where the business/financial aspect of training is brought into consideration. I'm getting the feeling from Sensei's correspondence that she was somewhat offended that I'd even bring the subject up.

I've avoided classes this week while trying to decide what to do. I've visited another dojo (a shotokan dojo) and while I think it would be perfect for me, I'm fairly sure my son would not like it at all.

So, the options that it would appear that I have are:
-Shut up about the fees and keep trianing at my current dojo with my son
-Cancel my membership and let my son keep training
-Cancel both our memberships and enroll myself in the Shotokan dojo (I'm sure if this happened my son would quit training).

I feel totally lost about what the right decision is. I don't feel comfortable discussing the issue with my Sensei, and that in itself causes me quite a bit concern.

I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions forum members might have.

Jeff A

[nismophreek]

I've been dealing with the same situation. I sat my instructor down and had a talk. You don't know what will happen if you don't say something. Do you know for a fact that your son won't like Shotokan or are you just assuming that? What style/styles do you train in now?

[CEB]

....

To make a long story short...Sensei posted a blog on the dojo website discussing the difference between a "customer" and a "student". To paraphrase...customers view training only as a "product" being offered, and students view training as a way of life.
....

There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!

As a teacher you teach a way (an approach). You teach what you think is the right way. The way does not change based on someones due structure. If the way includes weapons training it includes weapons training. If the way includes grappling it it includes grappling. If it doesn't it doesn't.

[jwinch2]

There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!

As a teacher you teach a way (an approach). You teach what you think is the right way. The way does not change based on someones due structure. If the way includes weapons training it includes weapons training. If the way includes grappling it it includes grappling. If it doesn't it doesn't.

Ed is right on in my view. This graduated pay structure sounds from the outside looking in to be a way to entice you to pay more than you originally agreed to and to wrangle more money out of you. In addition, it creates an environment where only those who are in the "blackbelt club" are serious students and others are not working as hard. To me if you teach the art, you teach all of it, not some to those who pay X, more to those who pay Y, and all to those who pay Z. If you were told upfront, "weapons are going to be taught outside of normal classes and there will be an extra charge to those wishing to participate in weapons training" I would not have a problem with that. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case in your situation...

Good luck with everything...

[STORMCROW34]

Sounds like profit margin is getting in the way of teaching and learning. I could be wrong, but it appears your sensei wants you to be a dedicated student. Which is how it should be providing she is a dedicated teacher. But at the same time, she wants you to continue to pay increasing commercial dojo fees without question. That doesn't seem quite right to me. Also one hour per training session seems a little short in my opinion.

You could take your son to the Shotokan dojo for a trial lesson. You never know. Maybe he will like it.

[CEB]

My roots were Shotokan. I started when I was 10 and I loved it. The dojo shut down and I took up Judo as a teenager. I came back to Karate in my 20's.

Gene is right. The biggest problem with a lot of McDojo styles is that they can ruin kids when it comes to real Budo.

Shotokan is good. The pedagogy and demanding stance work is perfect for introducing Karate to children.

[Dennis Monk]

I also agree with Ed on his point.
You teach what you teach. You shouldn't learn more just because you pay more.

[Webmaster]

There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!

As a teacher you teach a way (an approach). You teach what you think is the right way. The way does not change based on someones due structure. If the way includes weapons training it includes weapons training. If the way includes grappling it it includes grappling. If it doesn't it doesn't.

Another vote for Ed's take on this. He's dead on with this.

As far as what you do, we cannot decide for you. If I knew a little more about where you train and the alternative (the Shotokan dojo), I could give you a bit more educated opinion. From what you are telling me now, I'd walk. Take your son to the Shotokan dojo and see how he likes it. Tell him it's more serious hardcore Karate and see if that puts a different take on it. You never know, he might just surprise you and tell you that it's more what he wants too!

[Nick L.]

Another vote for Ed's take on this. He's dead on with this.

As far as what you do, we cannot decide for you. If I knew a little more about where you train and the alternative (the Shotokan dojo), I could give you a bit more educated opinion. From what you are telling me now, I'd walk. Take your son to the Shotokan dojo and see how he likes it. Tell him it's more serious hardcore Karate and see if that puts a different take on it. You never know, he might just surprise you and tell you that it's more what he wants too!

I know that if my Sensei ever were to raise the rates on me, I would have to leave immediately!

[Webmaster]

Hmm, let me guess.... core classes, bonus classes...Keichu Karate brought to you by Grandmaster uber-Soke Dr. Reverend Karl Marx.

http://www.keichudo.info/index.html

Oy.. that Shotokan class is looking better all the time.

[STORMCROW34]

Hmm, let me guess.... core classes, bonus classes...Keichu Karate brought to you by Grandmaster uber-Soke Dr. Reverend Karl Marx.

http://www.keichudo.info/index.html

Oy.. that Shotokan class is looking better all the time.

Yeah, but that headband looks pretty authentically sweet and tough at the same time.

[CEB]

If that is it then it looks better than I expected. Though I really hate the whole Chanbara thing. Something about weapon training with pool noodles just seems wrong. Hickory oak and steel are much better and helps to develop proper respect for the weapon.

To quote Gene again:
Real martial artist use real weapons. Toy weapons are for toy martial artists.

..... or something close to that.

Judging from the website alone .... I wouldn't train there though but that is just me.

[jeffa]

Thanks to all who have replied.

In respect to my Sensei (she is my Sensei so I think she deserves that respect), I'd rather not be specific about my dojo particulars.

The Shotokan class is held in a local community center (Pismo Beach CA, I think it's called "Central Coast Shotokan") and is not a commerical dojo. The Shotokan Sensei's name is Martin McGrail.

Here's the kicker that's absolutely killing me. I went home for lunch today and my son asked is we could have a "man to man" talk. He told me how much he enjoys training at our current dojo and basically begged me to keep going there.

I'm torn. I understand clearly all the points that have been made, but I also know that my son has gained useful and valuable skills over the last year. If it was just myself I'd have no problem walking. The Shotokan dojo is intense, I sure beyond any reasonable doubt that my son wouldn't like. Our current training, if nothing else, is exciting and enjoyable for him. He's comitted himself in a way that I've never seen with anything else.

Ahhhh.....what to do?

Thanks again for all the input.

Jeff A

[Webmaster]

It's great that your son is so enthusiastic about his training, so I understand your dilemma. Are the classes at the two dojo on separate nights? If so, why don't you start training in Shotokan and let your son stay where he is at...for now. Later, invite him to train with you at the shotokan dojo as "supplemental" training. His/your current sensei may not like that, but if she gets really upset, it should only confirm in your mind that maybe she sees it as a threat to her and what she is teaching is not what it's cracked up to be. Hopefully your son will see what serious and powerful karate Shotokan can be and decide for himself to change his focus.

[STORMCROW34]

If that is it then it looks better than I expected. Though I really hate the whole Chanbara thing. Something about weapon training with pool noodles just seems wrong. Hickory oak and steel are much better and helps to develop proper respect for the weapon.

To quote Gene again:
Real martial artist use real weapons. Toy weapons are for toy martial artists.

..... or something close to that.

Judging from the website alone .... I wouldn't train there though but that is just me.

I don't know Gene, err Ed, I think foam padded weapons do have their uses. Just like foam padded gloves do. They allow you to mix it up a little bit with power and intent, and without people making frequent trips to the hospital.
But I also think they shouldn't be the main focus. Real weapons definitely need to be primary.

[jwinch2]

I think foam padded weapons do have their uses. Just like foam padded gloves do. They allow you to mix it up a little bit with power and intent, and without people making frequent trips to the hospital.

The US Army and Marine Corps seem to think they are valuable enough to include in recruit training...

[CEB]

I don't know Gene, err Ed, I think foam padded weapons do have their uses. Just like foam padded gloves do. They allow you to mix it up a little bit with power and intent, and without people making frequent trips to the hospital.
But I also think they shouldn't be the main focus. Real weapons definitely need to be primary.

Yes a lot of people agree with that and I can see that point. When I saw Nishiuchi Sensei about 10 years ago they were doing sparring with those foam thingies. He is definitely a real Kobudo man. However they did all their Matayoshi Kobudo bunkai with real weapons.

I use some fake weapons for self defense training. Fake guns knives and clubs when I do that sort of thing. I studied Jujutsu system does that sort of thing. But I like to keep Kobudo as pure as I can. Kobudo to me is a living antique.

This is just a personal prejudice of mine. My teacher did not use so I do not use.

[Eliz]

Thanks to all who have replied.

In respect to my Sensei (she is my Sensei so I think she deserves that respect), I'd rather not be specific about my dojo particulars.

The Shotokan class is held in a local community center (Pismo Beach CA, I think it's called "Central Coast Shotokan") and is not a commerical dojo. The Shotokan Sensei's name is Martin McGrail.

Here's the kicker that's absolutely killing me. I went home for lunch today and my son asked is we could have a "man to man" talk. He told me how much he enjoys training at our current dojo and basically begged me to keep going there.

I'm torn. I understand clearly all the points that have been made, but I also know that my son has gained useful and valuable skills over the last year. If it was just myself I'd have no problem walking. The Shotokan dojo is intense, I sure beyond any reasonable doubt that my son wouldn't like. Our current training, if nothing else, is exciting and enjoyable for him. He's comitted himself in a way that I've never seen with anything else.

Ahhhh.....what to do?

Thanks again for all the input.

Jeff A

For starters - welcome to BudoSeek!

Next -- your son. A lot of commercial establishments work under the premise of: "Suck in the kids and the parents will stay (or join too)." Lets face it, we as parents will move mountains for our children.

I can almost promise you that your son's experience will eventually sour. Dojo's like this are really caught up on new business.

The fact that this woman answered your inquiry by expounding her mumbo jumbo on her school blog would have had me high tailing it out of there the next day.

Leave your son there, go and do your Shotokan and do not worry....He will be joining you within a year. (and the move will be of his choosing).

[CEB]

Our dojo is kind of funny. We have a lot of parents start Karate because they have childern in the kids class that one of my guys teaches. We don't do fancy stuff and a lot of kids move one but the parents stay.

We are also cheap. $25 a month, $35 for 2 or more.... I think. I don't handle the money. Great to have no rent.

Half of my class are mothers of former students

[torbjork]

I say move, but let your son train at your current school until he himself wants to leave.

The tiered fee structure is one thing, but the way your instructor is doing it sounds like bait & switch to me. "Oh, the class you WANT isn't a bonus class I'm afraid"