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  1. #1
    Junior Member karatekitty's Avatar
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    Default HELP WITH ..history, and creation of Keecho's ( hyung )

    I have been researching various forms that I have learned. I found it interesting to learn the meaning and history behind the Kata's.

    However, when it comes to the basic forms, I found very little information. What each pattern means, the history, or symbolism.

    Can anyone refer me to some sites or help me out?
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatekitty
    I have been researching various forms that I have learned. I found it interesting to learn the meaning and history behind the Kata's.

    However, when it comes to the basic forms, I found very little information. What each pattern means, the history, or symbolism.

    Can anyone refer me to some sites or help me out?
    Tang Soo Do's hyung are derived from the Okinawan Pinan kata. You should start looking there.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinan
    http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagod...pyong_ahn.html
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    If you are asking specifically about the Kicho series of hyung, the histories vary a bit. If you look at the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan resources, they were created by GM Hwang Kee in Seoul Korea, 1947.

    In other sources though, you will find reference to a shotokan set of kata called taikyoku. They are move for move identical to the Kicho hyung.

    I do not know the actual history and have never been able to find a reference. Therefore, I don't know what the real story is.

  4. #4

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    It is almost certain that Hwang Kee based the Gi Cho Hyung set on the Taikyoku Kata, but they are not identical. Funakoshi created these forms in the 1910's when he found that grade schoolers had a tough time learning the Pinan (Pyung Ahn) forms.
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  5. #5
    Moderator Emeritus TonyU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_tsdmdk View Post
    It is almost certain that Hwang Kee based the Gi Cho Hyung set on the Taikyoku Kata, but they are not identical. Funakoshi created these forms in the 1910's when he found that grade schoolers had a tough time learning the Pinan (Pyung Ahn) forms.
    Funny that, considering Itosu made the Pinan forms specifically to teach school children.
    "Once a kata has been learned, it must be practiced repeatedly until it can be applied in an emergency, for knowledge of just the sequence of a form in Karate is useless.” –Gichin Funakoshi

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  6. #6
    Senior Member WhiteBeltJones's Avatar
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    ***SNARK ALERT***

    Oh joy! Can we have another Japanese v. Korean martial arts origin thread???



    ***SNARK ALERT***

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyU View Post
    Funny that, considering Itosu made the Pinan forms specifically to teach school children.

    My assumption is twofold:

    1. Itosu was teaching older children, high school age or so. Funakoshi was teaching younger, grade school age.

    2. Itosu was teaching basically individuals. Funakoshi was teaching rooms full of kids.
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteBeltJones View Post
    ***SNARK ALERT***

    Oh joy! Can we have another Japanese v. Korean martial arts origin thread???



    ***SNARK ALERT***
    Wow, your studious insight amazes me. Although, since no one on this thread was discussing this, it is a non-sequitor. With your martial arts knowledge I am surprised you don't have a series of books out - but that would interfer with your comedy club tour.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by karatekitty View Post
    I have been researching various forms that I have learned. I found it interesting to learn the meaning and history behind the Kata's.

    However, when it comes to the basic forms, I found very little information. What each pattern means, the history, or symbolism.

    Can anyone refer me to some sites or help me out?
    As you can tell by the pattern of the forms, they are very basic - there is no real "meaning" behind them - they are simply introductory forms.
    Rick Brown
    Sam Dan, Dan Bon #21583

  10. #10
    Moderator Emeritus TonyU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_tsdmdk View Post
    My assumption is twofold:

    1. Itosu was teaching older children, high school age or so. Funakoshi was teaching younger, grade school age.

    2. Itosu was teaching basically individuals. Funakoshi was teaching rooms full of kids.
    Even in his book, Karate Kyohan, he states they were basic kata. "In addition to these kata, I have, as a result of several years of research into the the general problem, developed two sets of kata, the Taikyoku no Kata, for beginners, and the Ten no Kata, to be used as matching (kumite) forms".
    He did not differentiate between adult and children.

    As far as Itosu it's stated as follows; "In April 1901 Itosu introduced karate to the Shuri Elementary School as part of the physical training curriculum. 'But at first,' Nakama told me 'karate was considered to be too risky for young children, so Itosu removed the dangerous techniques and simplified his other katas and sparring into mostly punch and block techniques.' from Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop pg 89.

    If anything I'd argue that teaching methodology is what Funakoshi took to Japan and why Shotokan is what it is today.

    I'm not disagreeing as to him developing kata as that's documented but so far every resource I've looked up disputes that he solely made it for school age children. While in the case of Itosu we know he did.
    Last edited by TonyU; 10-25-2008 at 16:57.
    "Once a kata has been learned, it must be practiced repeatedly until it can be applied in an emergency, for knowledge of just the sequence of a form in Karate is useless.” –Gichin Funakoshi

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_tsdmdk View Post
    Wow, your studious insight amazes me. Although, since no one on this thread was discussing this, it is a non-sequitor. With your martial arts knowledge I am surprised you don't have a series of books out - but that would interfer with your comedy club tour.
    There is no reason to start insulting someone because he made a joke that you did not find funny. Please check the rules you agreed to when you signed up if you have any questions.
    For now, more than ever before, being sincere and dedicated is not enough. We must also be right. - Walter Kroll. 1971

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Eliz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_tsdmdk View Post
    Wow, your studious insight amazes me. Although, since no one on this thread was discussing this, it is a non-sequitor. With your martial arts knowledge I am surprised you don't have a series of books out - but that would interfer with your comedy club tour.
    Another assumption of yours?

    Even in humor there is an element of truth. That is not a license to berate or belittle the respondent.

    For what it is worth, I think TonyU has offered a very good and solid rebuttal. As TSD is not my primary study, I am anxious to hear what others have to say in regards to his post.
    Last edited by Eliz; 10-26-2008 at 02:20.
    Elizabeth

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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
    There is no reason to start insulting someone because he made a joke that you did not find funny. Please check the rules you agreed to when you signed up if you have any questions.
    So, his comment was a joke, yet mine is an insult? Honestly, I found his comment insulting.
    Rick Brown
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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliz Seuferling View Post
    Another assumption of yours?

    Even in humor there is an element of truth. That is not a license to berate or belittle the respondent.

    For what it is worth, I think TonyU has offered a very good and solid rebuttal. As TSD is not my primary study, I am anxious to hear what others have to say in regards to his post.

    I found WhiteBeltJones comment to be ignorant - so I made a joke about it. If that is an attack in our society, I fear for us all. I would also like to know what truth he exposed with his "humor", since no one in the thread is discussing anything remotely similar to his "joke". It looks like all are agreed that the basic set of forms was created by Funakoshi, and the TSD versions are very similar but slightly different.

    As far as the rebuttal, I would say that the problem Funakoshi refers to is that of teaching advanced forms to younger kids - he solved it with the creation of much simpler forms.
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  15. #15
    Super Moderator Eliz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_tsdmdk View Post
    I found WhiteBeltJones comment to be ignorant - so I made a joke about it. If that is an attack in our society, I fear for us all. I would also like to know what truth he exposed with his "humor", since no one in the thread is discussing anything remotely similar to his "joke". It looks like all are agreed that the basic set of forms was created by Funakoshi, and the TSD versions are very similar but slightly different.

    As far as the rebuttal, I would say that the problem Funakoshi refers to is that of teaching advanced forms to younger kids - he solved it with the creation of much simpler forms.
    The truth therein lies with forum experience. On average about 7 out of 10 such threads head EXACTLY in that direction. Often times we see perfectly good threads locked down as a result of member loyalties coming into play.

    If your response was in anyway intended as a humorous retort, I would perhaps suggest that you make use of the emoticons in the future. When you directly referred to his post as "ignorant," where you being humorous there too?

    And finally, I repeat that TSD is not my primary study, but I read TonyU's response to mean that there are no concrete findings to substantiate a specific age group of youth that the forms were intended. Have I misunderstood that? Are there findings to the contrary? I am genuinely curious.
    Last edited by Eliz; 10-26-2008 at 15:50.
    Elizabeth

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  16. #16
    Moderator Emeritus TonyU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliz Seuferling View Post
    And finally, I repeat that TSD is not my primary study, but I read TonyU's response to mean that there are no concrete findings to substantiate a specific age group of youth that the forms were intended. Have I misunderstood that? Are there findings to the contrary? I am genuinely curious.
    That's correct Eliz. As you know, while no expert, karate is what I'm most knowledgeable about. I also understands a Korean MA practitioner's quest for historical information about their art. Thus, I want to make sure assumptions and misinformation are not continued to be passed along. MA has enough of that as it is.
    If a person is looking for answers lets give them the correct ones. Plus, that what this forum is about anyway, the sharing of information.
    Last edited by TonyU; 10-26-2008 at 17:11.
    "Once a kata has been learned, it must be practiced repeatedly until it can be applied in an emergency, for knowledge of just the sequence of a form in Karate is useless.” –Gichin Funakoshi

    "The teacher is more important than the style."
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  17. #17

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    Well, one thing certainly happened - you guys managed to turn this thread into a discussion totally away from what was intended. It is no wonder that BudoSeek is so widely regarded as a joke on all other forums and message boards, with many topics going weeks or months without a posting. Sad really, but that is the way of things. Have a great day, anyway!
    Rick Brown
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  18. #18
    Moderator Emeritus TonyU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_tsdmdk View Post
    Well, one thing certainly happened - you guys managed to turn this thread into a discussion totally away from what was intended. It is no wonder that BudoSeek is so widely regarded as a joke on all other forums and message boards, with many topics going weeks or months without a posting. Sad really, but that is the way of things. Have a great day, anyway!
    How is is sad. Because we're, and this case, I'm trying to dispel myths and misinformation. The OP asked about the history and creation of particular form. So we're just going to sit here and allow misinformation to be given. Don't you think a person would like an accurate answer?
    I tried to have a gentlemanly discussion with you. I'm not opposed to learning something myself, which I have on many occasions on this board. But, you seem to take it personally for being corrected. So appears it is you that seem to have a problem not us.
    "Once a kata has been learned, it must be practiced repeatedly until it can be applied in an emergency, for knowledge of just the sequence of a form in Karate is useless.” –Gichin Funakoshi

    "The teacher is more important than the style."
    - Higa Yuchoku

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_tsdmdk View Post
    Well, one thing certainly happened - you guys managed to turn this thread into a discussion totally away from what was intended. It is no wonder that BudoSeek is so widely regarded as a joke on all other forums and message boards, with many topics going weeks or months without a posting. Sad really, but that is the way of things. Have a great day, anyway!
    We have many topics go weeks and months without posts because as of this morning we have 17,684 topics online and 243,950 posts. It's easy to have threads go for a while without a posting. Then again, if the posts are anything like your fine contributions, then I would just prefer to have the topic go unanswered. Juvenile responses like your little smartassed remark to others in this thread is not exactly what we are looking for from a contributing member. So if you consider us a joke and you cannot refrain from breaking our rules, then feel free to go away and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Just to aid you in your departure, enjoy a thirty day suspension on the house.
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