Jeff Prather Warriorschool Cult allegations

**David Craik** · 10-29-2008, 19:30

Originally Posted by TonyU

I hate to derail the thread but again we go in to semantics. I define a police officer as a uniformed beat cop that patrols a particular city, town, unincorporated area, county or state. In my case I'm a detective assigned to the Superior Court of NJ, think of it as a DA's detective.
In our case we're not out there every day in the front lines of society as I call it like a patrol/police officer. Cliff is a Police Officer. I just get to play one on occasion.

Ah, okay. I understand that you are hardly a beat cop or patrolman Tony. As you say, semantics I guess. I define a police officer as a person that carries a badge, has powers of arrest, and enforces the law. Just as both a Major with Force Recon and a LCpl in supply are both Marines. I thought both you and Cliff could be called police officers although you perform different functions. I apologize if I misspoke.

Im saying that there are a number of people in uniform that are there solely for a job, some college money, or to get out of some small town. Amongst them are people that will do the absolute minimum to get by, are not really "interested" in the profession other than serving out an enlistment the "shitbirds". I dont place them in the "Warrior Class".

I understand this line of thinking too, believe me.

**David Craik** · 10-29-2008, 20:14

Originally Posted by tgace334

Want to see an interesting point?

Try finding a definition for "Warriorship".

I can't find one, and a Google search for the term brings up martial arts folks with a philosophical bent likely borne of intense study with barefooted 'enemies' in angry white pajamas and new-agey people who would likely crap their pants if fired upon. Thus I must conclude that the term is in the same category as "plumbership" or "shipwrightship". Which is to say, kaka.

**tgace334** · 10-29-2008, 23:03

Originally Posted by David Craik

I can't find one, and a Google search for the term brings up martial arts folks with a philosophical bent likely borne of intense study with barefooted 'enemies' in angry white pajamas and new-agey people who would likely crap their pants if fired upon. Thus I must conclude that the term is in the same category as "plumbership" or "shipwrightship". Which is to say, kaka.

Yup. But it is a handy concept to fleece people of their money. People who want the perceived prestige of the title without the inconvenience of a long enlistment (or commission) or the danger of a real deployment.

But I do believe that mixed in there are the well meaning people who try and use the title to teach people discipline, self-protection skills, and all the "higher purpose" philosophical/character building aspects of training "as a warrior". It just gets a bit like LARPing when taken too far.

**elder999** · 10-30-2008, 08:03

Originally Posted by tgace334

Want to see an interesting point?

Try finding a definition for "Warriorship".

Then look for one for "Warrior".

Perhaps its not germaine to our discussion. But one isnt really defined.

Actually, it's defined in several dictionaries, including the O.E.D. My O.E.D. has it as "1The craft or skill of military arts and science, see 'warrior'2The conduct of a campaign, as in 'the war on poverty' -doesn't mean it's not kaka, though.

In fact, while the definition isn't readily available online, it can be found at Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Online, here, for a small fee-another example of using it to "fleece people of their money," perhaps.

Another interesting question is what to make of the use of the term to translate concepts from other languages for which the users decide that there is no better equivalent in english? An example of this might be the whole Tibetan Shambhala Warrior thing, which, as New-Agey as it is, was the term chosen by someone who did not speak english as their first language.

I was listening to a radio program in the car yesterday, Indian Country, which covers various "Native-American isssue." At one point in the discussion-the specifics of which aren't important-a Lakota fellow called in and called himself a "young warrior" -I laughed, and I'll tell you why in a minute.Fact is, because of my participation in certain ceremonies, I've been called the same-usually by elders. Rather than disabuse them of the notion (I have no particular attachment to the word, or peeve with it-I just don't find it personally appropriate) I let them go ahead and call me that out of respect for them. Another fact is, of course, that, at one time, my participation in some of those rituals might well have signified my being a "warrior," though, most of the time, one became a warrior as a boy, by going out with a war party, and, in the case of the Lakota, watching the ponies.

Given the fact, though, that so many people whom I regard as......less than serious call themselves "warriors," or are called warriors because of their participation in "ceremonies," whether genuine, watered down, co-opted or newly created, I'd really rather not be called that, because I'd rather not be associated with them.....that, and of course, I never got to have the privilege of serving in the military....

In fact, I rather gruffly told the last guy who called himself a "warrior" after a ceremony, to go out with a lance and tie himself to a stake to face the enemy, then he could call himself a warrior.. of course, I'd been up all night, and I wasn't in the mood for his particular brand of BS

Still,one has to ask what other word the Lakota fellow on the radio might have used to convey his sense of self;everyone who heard him knew what he meant, though it didn't fit the dictionary definition, and probably no longer fits the "tribal" definition as it existed prior to 1873.

**tgace334** · 10-30-2008, 10:41

good post but you need to get a grip on that smiley habit.

**tgace334** · 10-30-2008, 10:56

But I still find it telling that my spell check programs never seem to think "Warriorship" is a valid word...

**elder999** · 10-30-2008, 10:58

Originally Posted by tgace334

But I still find it telling that my spell check programs never seem to think "Warriorship" is a valid word...

And yet, from the OED:

1837 Tait's Mag. IV. 726 The stirring and barbarous ages of universal warriorship. 1885 OMAN Art of War 20 What wonder then if his contemporaries..glorified him into the normal type of warriorhood. 1892 Nation (N.Y.) 24 Mar. 222/2 The secret of warriorism.

Of course, it's clear that the word is used in parallel with original intended meaning of warrior, in all instances.....though the OED also makes clear (at "warrior") that the word is largely rhetorical and/or poetical now, as well as using, as its primary definition, the following:

1. One who makes war upon; a persecutor

and we won't even get into ALL the definitions found at "war."

**tgace334** · 10-30-2008, 11:13

Originally Posted by elder999

Given the fact, though, that so many people whom I regard as......less than serious call themselves "warriors," or are called warriors because of their participation in "ceremonies," whether genuine, watered down, co-opted or newly created, I'd really rather not be called that, because I'd rather not be associated with them.....that, and of course, I never got to have the privilege of serving in the military....

In fact, I rather gruffly told the last guy who called himself a "warrior" after a ceremony, to go out with a lance and tie himself to a stake to face the enemy, then he could call himself a warrior.. of course, I'd been up all night, and I wasn't in the mood for his particular brand of BS

.

Thats a great example of the issue at hand here. With our nation at war, and with a fair amount of prior service people involved in martial arts (and martial arts internet forums) I think that the tolerance for these types of people is starting to wear a bit thin. A decade or so back (even less probably) it seemed like every athlete, cancer victim, new ager and martial artist was being termed a "warrior". While its still going on there seems to be a bit more self-consciousness about using it.

BTW-My spell checkers seem to reject "internet" all the time too. Which I find a bit funny.

**STORMCROW34** · 10-30-2008, 12:18

There is a big diffeence between actually being a warrior and calling yourself a warrior. I think we'd be hard pressed to find many people serving in the military now that would call themselves a warrior, even though many of them are. The whole idea of someone labeling themselves as a warrior seems like absurd machismo to me. Even more so if they aren't actually engaging in any type of combat.

This topic reminds me of "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest Morgan. Great book. I've read it three times. But the whole "warriorship" aspect of that book always seemed a little over the top, in my opinion.

**David Craik** · 10-30-2008, 15:54

Originally Posted by STORMCROW34

This topic reminds me of "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest Morgan. Great book. I've read it three times. But the whole "warriorship" aspect of that book always seemed a little over the top, in my opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly. Truly a great book, goes more than a bit overboard with the 'warrior' business though.

**elder999** · 10-30-2008, 16:13

Originally Posted by David Craik

I agree wholeheartedly. Truly a great book, goes more than a bit overboard with the 'warrior' business though.

I also agree on both counts, but would have to ask, what word would you prefer for one who tires to "live the martial way," other than "martial artist," which is somewhat to general for what the author was trying to express....

And please don't say martialist!

**loki** · 10-31-2008, 12:20

The biggest problem, IMO, with calling oneself a 'martial artist' or a 'warrior' or whatever is the idea that it is defining. Essentially, you are telling yourself how you should act/feel/think based on an iconic image of a narrow archetype and quite possibly forgetting the context and your REAL role in it.

Example: If I am thinking and acting like a 'warrior' at the mall and some guy cuts me off, stealing my parking spot...what are you suppose to do? Well, to some the 'warrior' response would be to confront the person, create a confliction and possibly seek to 'win' an objective of 'punishing the person' or 'getting what was taken.' That won't fly in court - whether you are a serviceman at the mall or just a civilian who thinks of himself as a warrior.

Admittedly, this is not a perfect example, but I think it illustrates my point.

I've learned and grown from all the things I've done, but no one of them defines me, so I tend to get cautious around people who consistently and repeatedly refer to themselves by their hobby, job, or vocation.

"I'm a teacher so..."

"I'm a cop so..."

"I'm a warrior so..."

"I'm a Jock so..."

"I'm a (plug in the religious sect of choice)..."

In a previous post, the excellent point was made that most of the people who would legitimately fit the 'warrior' definition would probably not even use it. I'd go one step futher and say they are too busy 'being' to be preoccupied with 'talking' about it. They probably operating with a 'craftsman' mentallity NOT an 'artist' mentallity and don't really care about the affectation as much about the application.

That said, I think the whole in the equation isn't the choice of term so much as mentallity. Not as much now, but it was very 'Asian' (predominately Japanese and Chinese) to pull the Confusionistic thing and 'define' your identity by your discipline, job, or family role and the author wrote with that type of view to a Western/English Speaking audience.

Originally Posted by elder999

I also agree on both counts, but would have to ask, what word would you prefer for one who tires to "live the martial way," other than "martial artist," which is somewhat to general for what the author was trying to express.

I 'do' martial arts/self defense, and it affects how I feel/see/act but it is not who I 'am'

And please don't say martialist!

**David Craik** · 10-31-2008, 15:53

Originally Posted by elder999

I also agree on both counts, but would have to ask, what word would you prefer for one who tires to "live the martial way," other than "martial artist," which is somewhat to general for what the author was trying to express....

And please don't say martialist!

Well, let me consult my copy here. The main ideas seem rather similar to Nitobe's description of 'Bushido':

Honor
Truthfulness
Courtesy
Restraint
Loyalty
Service
Courage
Justice
Dignity

So..I guess my answer would not be a word. It would be "a decent person". Perhaps it's a sad comment on society that we have to assign a unique label to a person possessing traits that should be commonplace. I don't see anything neccesarily "martial" in any of them. Of course, the real meaning of "martial" vs. the way it is often used is open to debate too.

I'm off to attempt to rot the sharp fangs of ghouls and goblins now, thus saving society from their evil bite. Maybe I am a warrior of sorts...

**elder999** · 11-01-2008, 12:57

Originally Posted by David Craik

Well, let me consult my copy here. The main ideas seem rather similar to Nitobe's description of 'Bushido':

Honor
Truthfulness
Courtesy
Restraint
Loyalty
Service
Courage
Justice
Dignity

So..I guess my answer would not be a word. It would be "a decent person". Perhaps it's a sad comment on society that we have to assign a unique label to a person possessing traits that should be commonplace. I don't see anything neccesarily "martial" in any of them. Of course, the real meaning of "martial" vs. the way it is often used is open to debate too.

I know.....Boy Scouts.

**Tengu2** · 08-29-2011, 17:46

I am affraid after this short post I will stir a now calmed hornets nest ,and I am sure I will be editing this post as I start recalling things from as early as 1990,But I am speaking in the defense of Shihan .I met Shihan Parther at sometime in 1990 after a news paper article ,which I found most intriguing as at the time the news reporter brought up something to the effect of Real authentic Ninjas in Tucson.At the time I was studying under a complete fraud Ninjitsu instructor John Sharpe,so of course this this article grabbed my attention. I went and watched one class,and saw the immediate difference between the Sensei's ( one who has gone before) techniques,and students attitude,at that point Shihan Prather asked if I would like to try a class for my self to see how I liked it ,one class and I was hooked! As soon as my contract was fulfilled with Mr.sharpe I left and joined the Bujikan Dojo. So this may sound like normal chain of progression to most but there is more so please bear with me and follow me on this rabbit trail I was young at the time about 25 or so and eager I had a family and was the sole income Shihan Parther always worked with me so I could attend classes and either financially ,or having Senior students teach on private one on one classes.since I either worked Grave yard shift or swing shift and could not attend regular classes due to conflicting Schedules on top of all this I had many physical limatations with my type 1 diabetes and being hooked up to a insulin pump and numerous knee surgeries he always made accomadations no-one else would even consider, always he and the dojo welcomed my family and treated us as family and respect ,attending many dojo parties my very beautifull wife ( of 21 years)was always treated with the upmost respectno-one ever tried to rape or molest her let alone hit one her in fact just before I left the dojo in 1997 the dojo threw a baby shower for my wife and the whole dojo was inited along with thier wives and children,I f remember correctly there was police officer ,his wife and two daughters were presentI attended one Close qaurter class he taught and there were many people from the military present for training and along with some warrior students. Shiahn parter( I believe )new at the time I was a member of a conservative Christian church and he never pushed the warrior school on me or anyone else for that member as far as I know all the mebers of the warroir school willingly joined no-one was ever forced into joining ,and as far as the Bujikan Dojo goes some of the best people ( including inside my own church)I ever met and we became extremely close friends .Flash forward to the present I sat in on one children's class and saw a Black belt and Shihan Prather teaching just one young student and Shihan spent quality time teaching one student ,the kind that if other instructors would not spend with one individual ,I know this from past experience reconized me and after class we talked and he was sincere as he asked me about my health ,the well being of my wifee and remebered I had four children all this after not attending or participating in any classes since 1997.now I as you does this sound like a ego driven individual?Also I would like to point out that my church here in Az has many law enforcement agencies active in the congregation as our Pastor is the chaplin of the the Sheriff's Swat team and some of them have particepated in warrior school and in 2010 our Church even went through warrior school to get our concealed weapons permit.I also want to add to this and this may cause more damage than good but I know the internet can be a cruel place were anyone can crusade against some one and make it sound true as in 2008 I was a victim and the lies that were spread are things that have damaged both my and my wife's reputation and just in closing so that you know I also went through my church and warrior school and DID revieve my concealed weapons permit which mans I had to have a clean record when Department of Public Safety do a check on you and no felonies

**Don Roley** · 08-29-2011, 18:34

So Rudy, that text basically comes down to you not being able to dispute what others said happened to them and is in essence you thinking that it is a good school.

**Tengu2** · 08-29-2011, 19:37

Yes I studied under 3 different instructors none came close to Jeff Parther or his senior students,I was never ever pressured into joining the warriorship, nor did the Bujikan aspect have any cultish sings nor did Shihan Parther ever show the ego that a lot of cult leaders exhibit again these are my own close up personal opinions I knew him well and personally not just second hand or third hand info or unproven rumors,I was good friend with many a braclets, I don't know what else to say but while there I did see law enforcement officers being trained along with some millitary

**Don Roley** · 08-29-2011, 21:37

Originally Posted by Tengu2

these are my own close up personal opinions

Ok, so you were not around when others got the experience that they talk about. We respect your opinion even though it is limited, please respect others when they describe the events that happened to them and what they saw when you were not around.

**Tengu2** · 08-30-2011, 00:20

So what is the real issue here Shihan Parther is a vetran ,did due active army time taught active millitary,and various law-enforcement agencies,as I seen met some and heck even reffered some,I studied under his intstruction for over 7 years ,I knw his 1st wifes name daughters name he remebered my children my wife and it is limited? I don't understand and please enlighten me when I brought up what I knew about John Sharpe and his credentials I was edited and asked not to bad mouth some one which I respected ,John Sharpe was a complete and proven fraud he packed up and left when Shihan Praher showed up,yet you have some one who has credentiials and I support him and I am being scoldet and told my experience was limited? Some one who has the Menkyo from Japan and Soke Masaaki to verify his rank? well then please google my name up whilst at it and crucify me as all the internet media about me and my wife are fale and I have the paper work to verify including a CCW permit,I can no longer train thanks to Diabetesand a knee replacement but I am still treated with respect at the Bujikandojo in Az and my opionions are heard and respected

**Don Roley** · 08-30-2011, 07:22

Originally Posted by Tengu2

So what is the real issue here

Respecting all voices. You say that you did not see anything to cause you alarm. Several other people where witness or experienced things that did.

Originally Posted by Tengu2

I don't understand and please enlighten me when I brought up what I knew about John Sharpe and his credentials I was edited and asked not to bad mouth some one which I respected

No you weren't. When a moderator edits a post, there is a note to that effect. Not only is there no note, but the comment by a moderator after you is not as you say it is.

Here is the post you are talking about.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/sh...ht=#post334179

You were actually thanked for what you said. People respected you stating things about John Sharpe and giving a warning, even though he was a charismatic man. I am sure there are people who think about him the way the people whose blogs we are reading think about Jeff Prather.