Hadaka-Jime, unexpected counter

**Blade** · 11-01-2008, 08:36

I was demonstrating a rear naked choke to my bride who is small an inexperienced in martial arts. She moved her hand instinctively as lightning and grabbed my stones

(Gi nothwithstanding

) and that ended my demonstration.

Serious comments only, please....

**Webmaster** · 11-01-2008, 08:55

Turn your body to the side behind her, put your hip into her and off-balance to the rear (put them back on their heels with their back arched). Also bear in mind that if you applied the choke suddenly and violently (and for real) she might not have the presence of mind to calmly reach back and grab your testicles.

**Defined** · 11-01-2008, 09:10

I hope you congratulated her

A violent grab to the bits can be a counter to many a technique and for women it's sometimes pushed as the one-stop-shop for self defense targets.

Although I have been told by some martial artists that the male groin isn't always the best target as men instinctively protect the area. I guess from your experience that's not always true.

**Blade** · 11-01-2008, 10:29

Originally Posted by Webmaster

Turn your body to the side behind her, put your hip into her and off-balance to the rear (put them back on their heels with their back arched). Also bear in mind that if you applied the choke suddenly and violently (and for real) she might not have the presence of mind to calmly reach back and grab your testicles.

Aahaa...that is the very important body position that I missed!

I was to her left side (she is right handed) and she moved her left hand back and grabbed accurately without fumbling and that really shocked me.

**Blade** · 11-01-2008, 10:45

Originally Posted by Defined

I hope you congratulated her

A violent grab to the bits can be a counter to many a technique and for women it's sometimes pushed as the one-stop-shop for self defense targets.

Although I have been told by some martial artists that the male groin isn't always the best target as men instinctively protect the area. I guess from your experience that's not always true.

In retrospective, I should have congratulated her....but my pride was hurt

The experience made me wiser. In the real world, techniques can be countered in ways not practiced in the dojo.

**Rasputin** · 11-02-2008, 01:38

Plus, when the fewmets hit the fan, adrenaline can blunt the pain response long enough for them to be knocked unconscious, especially since a good Hadaka Jime should take less than 10 seconds to KO, once it is sunk in.

Plenty of time to lament the infliction of testicular terpitude afterward.

**Blade** · 11-02-2008, 07:33

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Plus, when the fewmets hit the fan, adrenaline can blunt the pain response long enough for them to be knocked unconscious, especially since a good Hadaka Jime should take less than 10 seconds to KO, once it is sunk in.

Plenty of time to lament the infliction of testicular terpitude afterward.

That is ok, but one is at risk of "losing the marbles" afterward if there is permanent damage to one's pebbles...

**Jeff C.** · 11-02-2008, 07:44

Ricardo, you have to ask yourself a critical question: did you feel ANY pain when your frank-and-beans were grabbed? I would bet that you did not feel any significant pain - you reacted to what you THOUGHT would happen.

I choked out a person from face-to-face who had grabbed my junk and was doing everything possible with my junk to make me stop. It was slightly uncomfortable, but I did not let go. However, Mr. Happy WAS released as unconsciousness took hold - with no damage or pain whatsoever.

Jeff Cook

**Blade** · 11-02-2008, 08:52

Originally Posted by Jeff C.

Ricardo, you have to ask yourself a critical question: did you feel ANY pain when your frank-and-beans were grabbed? I would bet that you did not feel any significant pain - you reacted to what you THOUGHT would happen.

I choked out a person from face-to-face who had grabbed my junk and was doing everything possible with my junk to make me stop. It was slightly uncomfortable, but I did not let go. However, Mr. Happy WAS released as unconsciousness took hold - with no damage or pain whatsoever.

Jeff Cook

Jeff, you are correct. I didn't feel any pain primarily because she didn't want to inflict pain but just control me. She had a firm hold on me, which made me think whether she had the potential to pull (and squeeze) and maybe castrate me if she had wanted to. I can imagine that the scrotal skin is elastic to a certain point but then it may just tear off if pulled with the right amount of force.

Of course, I bow to your experience as mine was just simulated for a demonstration.

**Tony Dismukes** · 11-02-2008, 08:58

Ricardo, you have to ask yourself a critical question: did you feel ANY pain when your frank-and-beans were grabbed? I would bet that you did not feel any significant pain - you reacted to what you THOUGHT would happen.

I was going to ask the same question. It's not as easy to inflict serious damage or pain with a grab to the (clothed) crotch as most people think.

That said, whenever you're applying a choke you should have awareness of possible counterattacks to the eyes or groin and be ready to adjust your position if necessary.

Robert's suggestion about unbalancing uke to the rear also helps prevent a number of other grappling-based counters to the choke.

**Blade** · 11-02-2008, 12:58

Originally Posted by Tony Dismukes

I was going to ask the same question. It's not as easy to inflict serious damage or pain with a grab to the (clothed) crotch as most people think.

Good point! And if the crotch is clothed with denim, it would be tough to inflict damage by pulling....but if it was some other less resistant fabric, I don't know .

Originally Posted by Tony Dismukes

That said, whenever you're applying a choke you should have awareness of possible counterattacks to the eyes or groin and be ready to adjust your position if necessary.

Indeed, from now on, I shall keep an effective defense of these possible targets in mind.

Originally Posted by Tony Dismukes

Robert's suggestion about unbalancing uke to the rear also helps prevent a number of other grappling-based counters to the choke.

Absolutely! And Sensei Robert knew that I was referring to the standing version of the rear naked choke.

It would appear that the ground version, which uses your legs as hooks, has your groin fairly protected. Yet, as you pointed out, your eyes can still become a target for a counter.

**Mekugi** · 11-03-2008, 03:17

You guys are so kinky.....

**Mano** · 11-03-2008, 10:11

Originally Posted by Jeff C.

Ricardo, you have to ask yourself a critical question: did you feel ANY pain when your frank-and-beans were grabbed? I would bet that you did not feel any significant pain - you reacted to what you THOUGHT would happen.

It's funny what your mind can do to you. Just recently I was reading a story that a bouncer told on another board. He had used a training version of OC gas on an aggressive customer. That is, he sprayed water on the guys face, but the customer thought it was the real deal. The customer had squirmed on the ground for five minutes, as is appropriate when you get pepper spray in your eyes.

Another example, in Meditations on Violence there was (if memory serves) a passage about cops dying from minor gun wounds, because that is what you are supposed to do when you get shot.

I think a similar logic might apply with attacks to the male genitals. Everyone knows it hurts a lot. You see it in the movies all the time.

**rgnawlins** · 11-03-2008, 11:51

I seem to remember my sensei telling us of a gentleman of the budo persuasion who ALWAYS wore a stainless steel cup(!)...he said ALWAYS. My plastic cup has protected my bells on numerous occasions on the mat. I don't think I would always wear it though. My wife would protest.

**Jeff C.** · 11-03-2008, 16:55

Originally Posted by rgnawlins

I seem to remember my sensei telling us of a gentleman of the budo persuasion who ALWAYS wore a stainless steel cup(!)...he said ALWAYS. My plastic cup has protected my bells on numerous occasions on the mat. I don't think I would always wear it though. My wife would protest.

My nifty bits ARE made out of steel, so it makes no sense for me to wear anything over them except maybe some Rustoleum to keep them from oxidizing...that can be rather unsightly.

Mano, the same thing happens with snakebite victims. Countless victims have died - from the bite of a nonvenomous, harmless snake.

Jeff Cook

**Nick L.** · 11-04-2008, 13:39

For the record, this has to be up there with one of the funniest threads ever!

Ricardo, I have never found a cup that actually fit comfortably, they usually just made the impact worse.

**Blade** · 11-04-2008, 20:46

Originally Posted by Nick L.

For the record, this has to be up there with one of the funniest threads ever!

It may look funny now but it wasn't funny when she had me by the short hairs!

Originally Posted by Nick L.

Ricardo, I have never found a cup that actually fit comfortably, they usually just made the impact worse.

Nick, you are probably buying cups 'made in japan'

you need to buy made in canada!

**K Williams** · 11-25-2008, 10:25

Originally Posted by Blade

Jeff, you are correct. I didn't feel any pain primarily because she didn't want to inflict pain but just control me. She had a firm hold on me, which made me think whether she had the potential to pull (and squeeze) and maybe castrate me if she had wanted to. I can imagine that the scrotal skin is elastic to a certain point but then it may just tear off if pulled with the right amount of force.

Of course, I bow to your experience as mine was just simulated for a demonstration.

Imagine what would have happened if she had a small knife in that hand...well a training knife in your situation.

**Blade** · 11-25-2008, 11:35

Originally Posted by K Williams

Imagine what would have happened if she had a small knife in that hand...well a training knife in your situation.

Lorena Bobbit deja vu!

**rgnawlins** · 01-21-2009, 04:35

[QUOTE=Jeff C.;293552]My nifty bits ARE made out of steel, so it makes no sense for me to wear anything over them except maybe some Rustoleum to keep them from oxidizing...that can be rather unsightly.

So that's the glint that hurts my eyes when I look east? I always thought it was the rising sun?!