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  1. #1
    Member Hack Foo Doe's Avatar
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    Ken G Wylson
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    Default Tang Soo Hyung Applications?

    All

    Does anyone know and practice applications of some or all the TSD Hyungs.

    I moved to Japanese styles as my Instructor only taught the Hyungs and not the application thus turning them into formalised dances.

    I, since then have looked at the TSD hyungs and realised that 90% Hyungs are renamed Okinawan kata. (this is not a negative statement, but a statement of fact - but then again it could be the other way around )

    I looked at Chil Sung Ee Ro which I still practice and though and looked and found nothing that represented a valid and realistic application for this or other hyungs although through re-evalutation (amending some of the moves slightly) and assistance from other forum's members devised an effective application for it.

    I put it out to the TSD community to show that there are applications and they are realistic.

    One thing I must say is that a downward block using the weakest bone in the forearm to collide against the strongest bone in the shin is NOT realistic. As the shins have been used to break baseball bats so a little tiny bone wont be a problem breaking it.

    Also as my Japanese Karate Instructor says "...a closed fist is not always a punch, it could be a grab...a block is not always a block but can be a strike...." which more or less means stepping to the side and downward block could actually be a hip throw!!!

    I believe Tang Soo is an excellent art, it just needs you guys to represent it correctly.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Eliz's Avatar
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    Elizabeth Seuferling
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hack Foo Doe View Post
    I believe Tang Soo is an excellent art, it just needs you guys to represent it correctly.
    Perhaps you should have gotten better TSD instruction.
    Elizabeth

    "Relying on the government to safeguard your retirement money is like relying on a pothead to safeguard your Fritos." - Unknown pot head

  3. #3
    Moderator Emeritus TonyU's Avatar
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    Tony "Iron Hands" Urena
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hack Foo Doe View Post
    All

    One thing I must say is that a downward block using the weakest bone in the forearm to collide against the strongest bone in the shin is NOT realistic. As the shins have been used to break baseball bats so a little tiny bone wont be a problem breaking it.
    That's because you don't understand the down block at all. The block, if done as a block, is not to the top of the leg, it's to the inside or outside of the leg depending on your followup (defense). The block is not the arm stopping the leg but your movement (tai-sabaki) in conjunction with the block.
    Common sense dictates that the leg is alot stronger than the arm.
    "Once a kata has been learned, it must be practiced repeatedly until it can be applied in an emergency, for knowledge of just the sequence of a form in Karate is useless.” –Gichin Funakoshi

    "The teacher is more important than the style."
    - Higa Yuchoku

  4. #4
    Member kbarrett's Avatar
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    Kenneth Barrett
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    Default

    While I don believe that learning the applications of the hyungs (katas) is very important, I am starting to believe that with so many hyungs (katas) being taught, that the applications are less imortant today as they where at one time. Also with the popularity of MMA, most people aren't really interested in learning the hyungs (katas) any more, most think there boring.

    Ken Barrett

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Eliz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbarrett View Post
    While I don believe that learning the applications of the hyungs (katas) is very important, I am starting to believe that with so many hyungs (katas) being taught, that the applications are less imortant today as they where at one time. Also with the popularity of MMA, most people aren't really interested in learning the hyungs (katas) any more, most think there boring.

    Ken Barrett
    I could not disagree with you more. That being said, there is some information in this thread that I thought you would be interested in reading:

    http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/sh...ad.php?t=26102

    Its a good read
    Elizabeth

    "Relying on the government to safeguard your retirement money is like relying on a pothead to safeguard your Fritos." - Unknown pot head

  6. #6
    Member kbarrett's Avatar
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    Default

    Thank you Ms. Eliz Seuferling for that link,

    I thought the different opinions on kata was really great. While I do think kata is important to ones over all development and growth, I just think there needs to be few kata's, maybe one or two and even three at the most.

    Student should spend time working on those kata's along with the many different applications that can be found with in those two or three kata's.

    Thank you
    Ken Barrett

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Eliz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbarrett View Post
    Thank you Ms. Eliz Seuferling for that link,

    I thought the different opinions on kata was really great. While I do think kata is important to ones over all development and growth, I just think there needs to be few kata's, maybe one or two and even three at the most.

    Student should spend time working on those kata's along with the many different applications that can be found with in those two or three kata's.

    Thank you
    Ken Barrett
    Mr. Barrett,
    I am sorry I am late getting back to this thread. Summers get a little hectic.

    Now I DO agree that SOME schools overdose on number of poomse vs. quality of poomse. Not all schools, but definitely some. I see it most in schools that offer 1/2 belt promotions or "stripe" promotions (ie yellow belt is one promotion, yellow stripe is another promotion altogether). There I see some made-up forms being taught to accommodate the in-between ranks.

    First, I am not a proponent of said ranking systems.
    Second, If a school owner adapts such a system, then please, please, please do not go and make up stuff just to qualify the obvious fund raising efforts.

    TKD is known for having a lot of poomse - both ITF and WTF can boast their fair share. When properly taught AND properly paced, I don't have a problem with the number. Now I will add, that as a [now retired] master level instructor, I practiced ALL poomse daily before the school even opened and I continued my own training weekly in another school. I never stopped "tightening" my own skills and knowledge. And I pretty much demanded the same of my students. When instructors are not forced to spend class time back pedaling - reteaching the same thing to the same students who do not practice - there is A LOT of time to concentrate on application and theory.
    Elizabeth

    "Relying on the government to safeguard your retirement money is like relying on a pothead to safeguard your Fritos." - Unknown pot head

  8. #8
    Member kbarrett's Avatar
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    Mrs. Seuferling,

    I couldn't agree with more about the over doing with the ranking system, I really wish there wasn't any ranking system at all, to much importances is placed on rank instead of on good strong skills.

    Students don't really need a bigger curriculum, all they need is a very simple and basic curriculum that teaches them the necessary skills, they'll need defend themselves and their loves. This curriculum simply need to be worked over and over again until every movement is second nature and instinctive.

    The bigger the curriculum the more rank which means more money for instrucotrs and schools. Mr. Lewis said it best once in an article I read, you only need two ranks if your going have ranking at all, and those ranks are white belt and black belt.

    As for the teachng the Hyungs, once the student has learn the movments with in the hyungs, then the combat application must be taught.

    Thank you sincerely
    Ken Barrett
    Last edited by kbarrett; 09-06-2009 at 13:17.

  9. #9
    Member TKDJoe's Avatar
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    Joseph Lykins
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliz Seuferling View Post

    First, I am not a proponent of said ranking systems.
    Second, If a school owner adapts such a system, then please, please, please do not go and make up stuff just to qualify the obvious fund raising efforts.
    As a student who trained at a dojang where these "half ranks" are present, I would like to address this issue as well... I believe that we only had one "made-up" form... That being Basic Form 1 at White Belt (not kibon... only has 9 techniques)... We had half ranks between each belt (Yellow, Green, Blue, Red, Brown...) And we only practiced the Taegeuk forms (1-8 Jang)... When there was repitition, there was much more attention to detail/ explanation of application as part of the examination... I agree with Ms. Seuferling's sentiment completely... But there are schools that can pull it off and produce quality black belts...
    Joseph Lykins

    "That which does not kill us, must have missed us."
    -- Miowara Tomokata
    "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill."
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  10. #10
    Member kmtsd's Avatar
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    Candace Hill
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    Default

    One thing I've learned by visiting other schools and taking seminars is that you need to keep your mind open. The katas/forms are FULL of applications. You mentioned low block- and a previous reply expanded on the correct way to use low block against a kick- BTW look up "cover punch technique" and you will see this is a very effective way to defend against a kick used in Olympic Taekwondo fighting... but did you ever imagine someone grabs your wrist and you can step back and stike down on their hand with "low block" to get them to release... Ah Ha!! -you can use low block as a wrist release ---there are many applications, keep your mind open and you may discover more.
    Candace Hill

  11. #11
    Member Tang-Soo-Architect's Avatar
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    Steven Swaby
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    Default The art of application in martial arts.

    I'm just jumping on board, so I hope I'm not going over ground already covered.
    Application of moves from Hyungs has come up very recently in our classes. We had a seminar with G.M. Lee last weekend and he told all the black belts present that he would be coming down had on students from now on and failing a lot more - including Masters.
    This brought up alot of questions regarding the understanding of the moves within Hyung. Better understanding should lead to better application.
    My sugestion would be to discuss this amongst your fellow students and of course your instructors.. whatever the martial art may be. I think sometimes folks are a bit wary of asking and also of voicing thier opinions to thier own teachers, but it is the best way to learn about the art you study.
    In the end you may find no absolute answer to certain questions but hopefully a better understanding of how the originator of your style interpreted what they originally learnt.
    With the counting of years Grand Masters often wish to put thier own mark upon the style they teach and forms change slightly, this can make it hard to fathom out the original application of the form. Perseverence is the key, keeping an open mind to others interpretations also is important.
    However we practice and learn martial arts, not martial science, so there may not necessarily be one answer, I think therefore in the end it is what you feel most comfortable with that makes it important for yourself to get the most out of the forms you practice.
    I learn something new everyday.

  12. #12
    Member Nyuck3x's Avatar
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    Ray Baldonade
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyU View Post
    That's because you don't understand the down block at all. The block, if done as a block, is not to the top of the leg, it's to the inside or outside of the leg depending on your followup (defense). The block is not the arm stopping the leg but your movement (tai-sabaki) in conjunction with the block.
    Common sense dictates that the leg is alot stronger than the arm.
    Just to follow-up on Tony's comment, Gedan Barai breaks down to the characters for "lower" (gedan) and "sweep" (harai as in ashi barai (foot sweep)). As the name suggests, it is not a stop hit but more of a redirection.
    Ray Baldonade
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    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". -Chan Yau-man - Survivor Fiji Finalist

  13. #13
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    Donald W. Daly
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    Default

    Very good comments here already, but I would like to add that many preparation moves in Tang Soo Do are really hapkido/yudo (jujitsu) styled wrist-locks, arm-bars, and throws that are hidden techniques. Also most Asian, and even many non-Asian, masters do not teach all the advanced techniques, because there is only so much one can teach at first. Later on, those students who have stuck with the school, usually receive more training and learn more of the "hidden" techniques. Chuck Norris has said that almost every step in Tang Soo Do can be a hidden kick, and that a simple upper punch goes through the stages of all the shorter punches. I would say that every preparation technique can be interpreted as a "hapkido styled" hold.

    Keep on learning the basics from your instructor, but keep your minds open to hints he/she might also be giving you.

    Don

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Eliz's Avatar
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    Default

    Welcome to the forum, Mr. Daly

    For clarification

    I would say that every preparation technique can be interpreted as a "hapkido styled" hold.
    What do you mean by 'preparation technique?'

    As to some earlier posts:
    Poomse/kata is a collection of techniques. The techniques and applications should be taught AS the pattern is being learned. What I am hearing from some of the responses is that you were taught to move through the mechanics of a pattern with little to explanation of why
    Elizabeth

    "Relying on the government to safeguard your retirement money is like relying on a pothead to safeguard your Fritos." - Unknown pot head

  15. #15
    Member rainesr's Avatar
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    Default

    In TSD we were taught the forms first then some application. The application was taught in levels I guess. First we learned punch, kick, block, sweep techniques throughout the form, then joint lock techniques and maybe some breaks, then throws. After that, how to do those throws without a dobok, drop people on their heads or maybe throw to break instead of just dropping someone on their back, neck wrenches, the more aggressive stuff. Distancing was taught throughout the process. We weren't taught all this while learning a form, usually just the punch, kick, block, sweep stuff.

    In Kung Fu, once you have learned some body mechanics, application is taught in a similar way but it seems to define our drills and sparring, it is central to our curriculum. In TSD it was something we were shown and then went back to doing normal stuff (sparring, one steps, forms), only a few of us in TSD would stay after or get together and drill our form applications. Most didn't seem to care.



    ~Rob
    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. - Albert Einstein

  16. #16
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    Elixabeth,

    After the double punches in Bassai (Passai, Palsek) you draw back you fists into a chambered position to one side, then switch them to the other side before the outside to inside kick (pakeso anuro chagi). These chambered "preparation or ready positions" are analogous to the arm-bar wrist-lock, and bent-arm wrist-lock take-down, from hapkido (aiki-jujitsu) type ho sin sul techniques that are often taught as part of the ho sin sul in Tang Soo Do. Many asian master's like to teach these without necessarily connecting them to the hyung in order to see who is thinking and working it out on there own outside the dojang. At least this is my way of assuming that most of them do know the connection. It is always better to assume your instructor knows a lot more than he/she may be telling you.

    Don Daly

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