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  1. #1
    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Default Kuki koryu and Takamatsu?

    I'm making this inquiry based off remarks from another forum
    I brought the subject here to learn more about it.

    I am making this inquiry with quite a bit of respect
    only trying learn more about it whether it is accurate or not?

    It was said that the Koryu Budo of the Kuki family such as Kukishinden tenshin hyoho
    were revived schools and that Takamatsu Toshitsugu, teacher of the X-kan headmaster
    Maasaki Hatsumi, was the one who helped revive them -- from the kuki based budo that he held and which became the kukishinden ryu that Hatsumi and the rest of the X-kan teaches.

    [I can't post the URL to the other conversation because I am new here.]

    I hope this inquiry won't make anyone angry?

    But is this true?

    And if this is true then what does this make the Kukishinden ryu
    taught in the X-kans?

    Would someone please explain all of this to me?

    I am very curious and don't know the facts or circumstances.

    TYVM in advance for any replies.
    Logan Black

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    Moderator Don Roley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    And if this is true then what does this make the Kukishinden ryu
    taught in the X-kans?
    Complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    It was said that the Koryu Budo of the Kuki family such as Kukishinden tenshin hyoho
    were revived schools and that Takamatsu Toshitsugu, teacher of the X-kan headmaster
    Maasaki Hatsumi, was the one who helped revive them -- from the kuki based budo that he held and which became the kukishinden ryu that Hatsumi and the rest of the X-kan teaches.
    Here is what I can recall right now. I will check some sources if I can find them.

    The Kuki family developed their martial arts. They taught them to people outside the family. They later stopped teaching the arts in their family. Branches outside the family continued to teach it. It was Takamatsu who had learned it from someone outside the family to re-introduce it to the family.

    There is more to the story, but the accounts differ depending on who is telling it. You might want to ask Mekugi about this since he can give a different viewpoint than someone involved in the Bujinkan or Genbukan.
    Guns don't kill people. Ninjas kill people.

  3. #3
    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Hello Don Roley,

    Yeah I'd say that 'complicated' might be a key word here all the way around the board.

    I'm trying to understand this
    as a context.

    Mainly I am intrigued by the idea that Takamatsu
    had helped (?) 'revive' (?) or 're-initiate' what now is a koryu and yet the 'Takamatsuden' martial arts are never recognized as a koryu themselves.

    Somehow that seems strange and off kilter?


    But then again so is everything around here
    Logan Black

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    Moderator Don Roley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    Mainly I am intrigued by the idea that Takamatsu
    had helped (?) 'revive' (?) or 're-initiate' what now is a koryu and yet the 'Takamatsuden' martial arts are never recognized as a koryu themselves.
    Well, Takamatsu AFAIK did not revive the art itself, just inside a family. It had been passed down in other lines, what Takamatsu did was basically let those who had lost it learn it again. So we are only talking about what happended inside the Kuki family.

    And at least one branch of Kukishin ryu is a member of a koryu organization. Takamatsu was part of something that branched off from that line at some point. It is all rather complicated and open to a lot of interpetations and viewpoints.
    Guns don't kill people. Ninjas kill people.

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    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Don Roley Well, Takamatsu AFAIK did not revive the art itself, just inside a family. It had been passed down in other lines, what Takamatsu did was basically let those who had lost it learn it again. So we are only talking about what happended inside the Kuki family.
    Okay, so the Kuki family itself.
    That's easy enuf to grasp. Right then.

    The school wasn't revived but instead
    retaught to the Kuki family themselves.
    Who then had it organized and applied for
    membership in the butokukai as a koryu.

    This apparently happened in the 20's or 30's ?
    Is that the deal then?


    And at least one branch of Kukishin ryu is a member of a koryu organization. Takamatsu was part of something that branched off from that line at some point. It is all rather complicated and open to a lot of interpetations and viewpoints.
    I get what you mean, I understand
    how these kinds of non-koryu (?gendai?) ryuha
    proliferate in Japan. Takamatsu had learned
    a branch of the kukishin schools that wasn't
    itself koryu but had a distant cousin or sibling
    school that WAS koryu?

    Is that the deal?
    Logan Black

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    Senior Member Brian R. VanCise's Avatar
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    I would be thrilled to here Mekugi's knowledge regarding the subject.

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    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll drop us a line on the subject.

    I'll see can I leave him a private message to request his help?

    I'd like to hear more about the subject myself, it's very interesting.
    Logan Black

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  8. #8
    Corripe Cervisiam Mekugi's Avatar
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    Hi!

    Without going into heavy detail:

    There is a lineage of Soke and a lineage of shihan and the two have been separate for decades. As of this age and since Kuki Takaharu's time (the time frame relevant here) the Kuki family have not learned the Kuki martial arts. The shihan, in fact, are the ones that kept the practice of Bujutsu alive (men such as Ishitani sensei, Shigematsu sensei, Takamatsu sensei and Iwami sensei).

    That being said, Takamatsu Sensei didn't "re-teach" the bujutsu to the Kuki family simply because they were not training in it (if they did it was not a serious undertaking). What Takamatsu Sensei did do was faithfully document, copy and research the Kuki archives/scrolls (and of course teach and train like h3ll).

    Before the war, Takamatsu Sensei was involved in the forming of a group called the "Kodosenyokai Shobukyoku"; after the war the group was re-organized and changed its name to the "Nihon Taiiku Kyoku" with the support of Kuki Takaharu, circa 1950. It was around this time, for whatever reason, that Takamatsu sensei began to distance himself from the other Shihan and from Kuki soke.

    Later on Takamatsu Sensei left this group (Nihon Taiiku Kyoku) completely and formed his own in Nara with his two students Kimoto Fumio and Kimura Masaji, which he called the "Kashihara Shobukyoku".

    From what I understand, Takamatsu sensei went on to "form" his own martial art, which he originally named "Chosui ryu". From that point on there is little known by us, but it was around this time that he started to teach people like Ueno, Hatsumi, etc.

    Most of this is on the Kuki website...you have to look at the lineage and dig through some of the history sections (which is difficult to read and gives me a headache) but you'll find it.
    Last edited by Mekugi; 03-10-2009 at 10:54.
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    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Oh Ok.

    From what Mekugi said there, it's a different picture
    than what I've been hearing in these conversations.

    Takamatsu did not re-teach these ryuha to the Kuki family.

    Takamatsu did not revive (any of) these ryuha.

    Therefore such schools as Kukishinden tenshin hyoho (and similar kuki or kuki-related ryuha) are not revived schools that became koryu in the early 20th century.

    Takamatsu did train and was licensed in an existing gendai (non koryu) form of these kuki-related ryuha but was not involved in reviving or recreating anything.

    Takamatsu was only a researcher of the kuki archives.


    That's the exact opposite of what's been getting said about this subject in the conversation (both here and on the other forums I've been chatting it up.)

    This position (on the subject) is far more what I expected might be true. The other positions sounded... strange.

    TYVM everybody.


    .
    Last edited by Lbkickn; 03-09-2009 at 17:31.
    Logan Black

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    Moderator Don Roley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    Takamatsu did train and was licensed in an existing gendai (non koryu) form of these kuki-related ryuha
    Hmmm? Where did you get that idea? And the above is not the only thing that does not seem to be backed up by what others have said.

    I told you this issue was complicated.
    Guns don't kill people. Ninjas kill people.

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    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Roley View Post
    Hmmm? Where did you get that idea? And the above is not the only thing that does not seem to be backed up by what others have said.

    I told you this issue was complicated.
    ???

    Not sure what you mean?
    But I got the idea from this remark posted above by Mekugi (in post #8):

    Mekugi said: Without going into heavy detail:

    There is a lineage of Soke and a lineage of shihan and the two have been separate for decades. As of this age and since Kuki Takaharu's time (the time frame relevant here) the Kuki family have not learned the Kuki martial arts. The shihan, in fact, are the ones that kept the practice of Bujutsu alive (men such as Ishitani sensei, Shigematsu sense, Takamatsu sensei and Iwami sensei).
    If I understood this remark (and if not, I humbly apologize)

    the Soke lineage of the ryuha are koryu,
    the Shihan lineage(s) are not koryu.
    Takamatsu belonged as stated in the above quote
    to one of the Shihan lineages, non-koryu.

    If I understood the remark that was what was indicated.

    It makes sense, I've heard of Soke lineages and Shihan lineages before, the definition is consistent with what I've heard before.

    Did I misunderstand?

    But yeah, it's complex to be sure.


    .
    Last edited by Lbkickn; 03-09-2009 at 20:26.
    Logan Black

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  12. #12
    Junior Member morpheus's Avatar
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    Having read the thread I do think that you have misunderstood Russ' post. I believe when Russ referred to soke lineage and shihan lineage he is making a distinction between the familial head and the licensed master teacher of the system. The familial head was not a licensed teacher of the ryu, therefore the Kuki family was not active in the bujutsu tradition. The koryu bujutsu tradition of the Kuki family was handed down by the lineage of the master teacher, shihan.

    Jeff
    Jeffrey Z. Brown

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    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Perhaps so?

    Either way I just came from the Kukishinden
    Tenshin Hyoho website. It had a history
    section that spoke of Takamatsu and of
    Tanemura and the Kukishin ryu held by
    both.

    It stated in plain language that the kukishin ryu
    was fully legit and authentic kukishin ryu, which
    is a nice thing for the X-kans. Indeed!!

    Oddly enuf it seems to largely ignore Hatsumi
    and what few references exist that i could find
    on the pages of that site left me with the
    impression that they didn't approve.

    Either way one thing's for sure
    kukishin ryu of takamatsuden was openly
    declared "authentic" by the KTH website.

    So no, apparently it's not complex...
    it's legitimate and authentic.


    Funny thing is that I ain't an X-kanner of any kind
    I do American jujutsu and this isn't even my style
    we're talking about (I was just curious.)

    So there ya have it guys:

    according to the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho koryu
    website, X-kan kukishin ryu is not complex but
    is (in their exact words): "authentic" and "legitimate."


    Logan Black

    One more time 'round the block is more than I wanna go!!

  14. #14
    Moderator Don Roley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    Did I misunderstand?
    Yes.

    Please be cautious. You have made afew statements here and over at e-budo and attributed them to Russ (Mekugi.) There are some things you have said that are off and that some people might take issue with and by saying that he is the source, you paint a target on him. I don't want something like that to happen.

    If you do not know, then just live with that. If you say something, take the credit of blame for it.

    As I said, the issue is complicated. If you are familiar with the background of traditional Japanese arts and the specifics, you are in a much better position to understand what is being said. As it is, you are best served by learning a bit more before making any conclusions about how things are.
    Guns don't kill people. Ninjas kill people.

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    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Okay, I see.

    No I wouldn't want to do that either.
    Logan Black

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    Corripe Cervisiam Mekugi's Avatar
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    WOA!! there Silver.....

    Let's back up just a little.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post

    Takamatsu did not re-teach these ryuha to the Kuki family.
    Simple answer: Yes.

    Not so simple: No.

    This depends on what statement is implying here. To me this sounds as though he taught them (the Kuki family) the ryuha (Kukishin ryu...it's the only one involved with the Kuki family at that point) which is certainly not true because they haven't been active in training for a looooooooong time- including Takaharu Kuki soke. If you mean he researched the scrolls and shed a lot of light on stuff well then, the answer would also be YES- he contributed a GREAT deal to what the Shihan do today (see the link to the Kuki documents on the martial arts below).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    Takamatsu did not revive<edit> THE ryuha.
    Define "revive" here and explain what exactly did he revived? Do you mean generate interest or do you mean he brought a dead ryuha back to life? If that latter is true, consider who he learned from...Ishitani sensei. He was certainly involved in the forming of the "Kodosenyokai Shobukyoku" and doing a lot of research...and again, doing meticulous research....but that is a bit different, dontcha think?

    This means Ishitani sensei didn't teach him, Takamatsu just revived (which I am taking to mean "re-create" or "re-form") the art from ashes. Exactly who did he learn from then?? Iwami sensei seemed to have learned Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho from Ishitani sensei...so this is confusing to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    Therefore such schools as Kukishinden tenshin hyoho (and similar kuki or kuki-related ryuha) are not revived schools that became koryu in the early 20th century.
    I am not sure I understand this. Koryu don't become koryu in the 20th century. Takamatsu sensei contributed a lot, but ya know...it seems to me that you are saying that Ishitani sensei taught a dead art that Takamatsu sensei revived?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    Takamatsu did train and was licensed in an existing gendai (non koryu) form of these kuki-related ryuha but was not involved in reviving or recreating anything.
    Sorry I simply do not understand this...I'm a little thick around the edges here.

    __________________________________________________ ________

    Take a look here to see what Takamatsu sensei contributed (a great deal...), most notably look under the martial arts section:

    http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/mystic_e.htm

    Now, does this mean that he revived it- or did he compile it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post
    Takamatsu was only a researcher of the kuki archives.
    NO WAY, he was a Shihan!!!



    Anyway...Don is totally right. This stuff is not cut and dried for easy consumption. It's complicated....

    -Russ
    Last edited by Mekugi; 03-10-2009 at 14:33.
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  17. #17
    Corripe Cervisiam Mekugi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Having read the thread I do think that you have misunderstood Russ' post. I believe when Russ referred to soke lineage and shihan lineage he is making a distinction between the familial head and the licensed master teacher of the system. The familial head was not a licensed teacher of the ryu, therefore the Kuki family was not active in the bujutsu tradition. The koryu bujutsu tradition of the Kuki family was handed down by the lineage of the master teacher, shihan.

    Jeff
    On the money! But...it seems to me that sometimes during history a Kuki was the headmaster and the head teacher, while there was still a head Shihan in the line....if that makes sense. Now that I think about it, I am not sure that it does. It gets really complicated....yesh.

    -R
    Last edited by Mekugi; 03-10-2009 at 11:00.
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  18. #18
    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Well, at this point I ain't sure I understand anything that got said.

    I don't understand the posted replies above at all.

    But that's not important.




    I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you folks that the Kukishinden tenshin hyoho website I and others have sited on this thread specifically identified that the Kukishin ryu taught in the X-kans as being fully legitimate and authentic.

    The kukishin ryu taught by the X-kans has been identified by KTH as being fully legitimate and authentic kukishin ryu.

    That is important, I think.

    I am not an X-kanner of any kind this isn't my fighting art but to me it speaks volumes and I'm glad for ya. I hope that my intentions are clarified by this acknowledgement of the authenticity and legitimacy indicated by the KTH.

    BTW, the remarks about Takamatsu were no opinion of mine either way (the initial post above indicated clearly that it was remarks made by others and I was asking your opinions.)


    TYVM, I have learned quite a bit.



    .
    Logan Black

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lbkickn View Post

    I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you folks that the Kukishinden tenshin hyoho website I and others have sited on this thread specifically identified that the Kukishin ryu taught in the X-kans as being fully legitimate and authentic.

    The kukishin ryu taught by the X-kans has been identified by KTH as being fully legitimate and authentic kukishin ryu.

    .
    Ummm...where is this coming from? This sounds like an agenda now. Why would Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho,(the martial art that I am a member of) go about saying that anyone else is authentic or inauthentic, one more time?
    Last edited by Mekugi; 03-10-2009 at 14:39.
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  20. #20
    Newbie Lbkickn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi View Post
    Ummm...where is this coming from? This sounds like an agenda now. Why would Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho,(the martial art that I am a member of) go about saying that anyone else is authentic or inauthentic, one more time?

    ?!?

    Sir? What do you mean by an agenda?

    I only cited the Kukishinden tenshin hyoho website

    [ It won't let me post the link? But here's the address ]:

    After entering the http-www, the address reads as follows
    shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history07 e.htm

    And thereupon, roughly halfway down the page it says:

    "...so it is certain that they learned "authentic Kukishin Ryu" that Chosui taught..."

    "...Tanemura Shoto is the one who learned authentic Kukishin Ryu from Teacher Kimura in his late days and was awarded "Sodennomaki." ..."

    I have no agenda.
    I don't know what you mean.

    That is simply what the KTH website said about the subject.

    I deeply apologize if I have offended anyone or said anything out of line here. That was not my intention. I replied to your inquiry and posted the link to that webpage in hopes of clarification.



    I will shut up about the subject, it isn't even my MA.

    My apologies.
    Logan Black

    One more time 'round the block is more than I wanna go!!

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